Does grappling negate Mirror Image?Is there “flavor text” in D&D 5e spells?What happens if I try to grapple an illusory duplicate from the Mirror Image spell?Does Mirror Image enable Sneak Attack?Does Mirror image hinder the capacity to take the Hide action?What does mirror image look like?Can you maintain a grapple you are no longer capable of initiating?If you cast Blink, do spells with visual/physical effects centered on the caster follow you to the Ethereal Plane?How do faerie fire and mirror image interact?How do two castings of Mirror Image interact when one starts losing illusory duplicates?How does the Mirror Image spell interact with the Trickery cleric's Invoke Duplicity ability?Do the illusory duplicates created by the Mirror Image spell vanish when hit by a non-damaging attack?What happens if I try to grapple an illusory duplicate from the Mirror Image spell?

Large drywall patch supports

Why didn't Theresa May consult with Parliament before negotiating a deal with the EU?

Increase performance creating Mandelbrot set in python

Would this custom Sorcerer variant that can only learn any verbal-component-only spell be unbalanced?

How does it work when somebody invests in my business?

Where does the Z80 processor start executing from?

How does the UK government determine the size of a mandate?

Go Pregnant or Go Home

Why, precisely, is argon used in neutrino experiments?

How easy is it to start Magic from scratch?

Do sorcerers' Subtle Spells require a skill check to be unseen?

How do I go from 300 unfinished/half written blog posts, to published posts?

How to write papers efficiently when English isn't my first language?

What does "I’d sit this one out, Cap," imply or mean in the context?

I'm in charge of equipment buying but no one's ever happy with what I choose. How to fix this?

Can the discrete variable be a negative number?

Unreliable Magic - Is it worth it?

What is the best translation for "slot" in the context of multiplayer video games?

Do the temporary hit points from the Battlerager barbarian's Reckless Abandon stack if I make multiple attacks on my turn?

How did Arya survive the stabbing?

How do I extract a value from a time formatted value in excel?

Is there a good way to store credentials outside of a password manager?

Crossing the line between justified force and brutality

What is the difference between "behavior" and "behaviour"?



Does grappling negate Mirror Image?


Is there “flavor text” in D&D 5e spells?What happens if I try to grapple an illusory duplicate from the Mirror Image spell?Does Mirror Image enable Sneak Attack?Does Mirror image hinder the capacity to take the Hide action?What does mirror image look like?Can you maintain a grapple you are no longer capable of initiating?If you cast Blink, do spells with visual/physical effects centered on the caster follow you to the Ethereal Plane?How do faerie fire and mirror image interact?How do two castings of Mirror Image interact when one starts losing illusory duplicates?How does the Mirror Image spell interact with the Trickery cleric's Invoke Duplicity ability?Do the illusory duplicates created by the Mirror Image spell vanish when hit by a non-damaging attack?What happens if I try to grapple an illusory duplicate from the Mirror Image spell?













15












$begingroup$


Inspired by What happens if I try to grapple an illusory duplicate from the Mirror Image spell?, what happens if I successfully grapple the wizard, rather than targeting one of the duplicates? Is the wizard's spell negated because I'm grappling him?



Mirror image states:




Three illusory duplicates of yourself appear in your space. Until the spell ends, the duplicates move with you and mimic your actions, shifting position so it's impossible to track which image is real.




The illusory duplicates are of yourself, not others, so couldn't my allies just target the one I'm holding?










share|improve this question











$endgroup$
















    15












    $begingroup$


    Inspired by What happens if I try to grapple an illusory duplicate from the Mirror Image spell?, what happens if I successfully grapple the wizard, rather than targeting one of the duplicates? Is the wizard's spell negated because I'm grappling him?



    Mirror image states:




    Three illusory duplicates of yourself appear in your space. Until the spell ends, the duplicates move with you and mimic your actions, shifting position so it's impossible to track which image is real.




    The illusory duplicates are of yourself, not others, so couldn't my allies just target the one I'm holding?










    share|improve this question











    $endgroup$














      15












      15








      15





      $begingroup$


      Inspired by What happens if I try to grapple an illusory duplicate from the Mirror Image spell?, what happens if I successfully grapple the wizard, rather than targeting one of the duplicates? Is the wizard's spell negated because I'm grappling him?



      Mirror image states:




      Three illusory duplicates of yourself appear in your space. Until the spell ends, the duplicates move with you and mimic your actions, shifting position so it's impossible to track which image is real.




      The illusory duplicates are of yourself, not others, so couldn't my allies just target the one I'm holding?










      share|improve this question











      $endgroup$




      Inspired by What happens if I try to grapple an illusory duplicate from the Mirror Image spell?, what happens if I successfully grapple the wizard, rather than targeting one of the duplicates? Is the wizard's spell negated because I'm grappling him?



      Mirror image states:




      Three illusory duplicates of yourself appear in your space. Until the spell ends, the duplicates move with you and mimic your actions, shifting position so it's impossible to track which image is real.




      The illusory duplicates are of yourself, not others, so couldn't my allies just target the one I'm holding?







      dnd-5e spells grapple






      share|improve this question















      share|improve this question













      share|improve this question




      share|improve this question








      edited Mar 21 at 23:59









      Bloodcinder

      23.1k382140




      23.1k382140










      asked Mar 21 at 15:04









      Blake SteelBlake Steel

      4,1081948




      4,1081948




















          3 Answers
          3






          active

          oldest

          votes


















          14












          $begingroup$

          No



          The mirror image rules still apply because the spell is still active. The 'fluff' or narrative of description of why is up to the DM.



          The only ways to bypass are if you aren't making an attack roll or if it is dispelled /suppressed.



          Narrative example



          To help give some substance to this, a possible description I would use is:




          You're holding him with one hand, but his images are moving so quickly around it that even though you've got one hand on him, you really don't know where he is. Magic, man, it's wacky.




          Table Reasons not to allow it



          I'd also heavily consider what it would mean to allow grappling to negate the spell effect. If it's a player casting it, they've just used up a 2nd level slot to do so (which could be very impactful depending on the level of the caster). It's less of an issue for later, but resources are resources.



          It also starts to open up potential other issues for why do some things work against it and others not.



          Letting the spell do its job is both within the rules and makes good sense.






          share|improve this answer











          $endgroup$




















            5












            $begingroup$

            I am sure that others will disagree, but here is how I have always interpreted it and the logic for my decision. I have never had a complaint from any players when this explanation is provided. It involves inferring several factors that are not explicitly stated in RAW but so far as I know it complies with RAW and provides a logically consistent experience within the story.



            Assumptions about mirror image:



            1. The duplicates of the caster are not naked. The images include all clothes, armor, weapons, items, etc. that can are visible on the caster. It will also include any "visual effects" that exist at time of casting. If the caster's hair is on fire when the spell is cast then all of the duplicates will have burning hair. I even extend it to the ground immediately around them. If there is dust or powder on the ground getting kicked up by the casters feet as they move then all of the images will seem to be kicking up dust. Anything "attached" to the caster and visible to the players is duplicated and is visible on the duplicates. Anything else means that there is a difference between the images that could be used to identify which are fake.


            2. The duplicates are constantly updated to always be identical to the caster as defined in assumption #1 so the spell effect of making them impossible to tell apart is maintained for the duration of the spell.


            Mechanical implications:



            • If the caster is knocked to the ground by a fireball then all of the copies fall to the ground.


            • If the caster's clothes get charred by a fire then the clothes on all of the duplicates appear charred.


            • If the caster's clothes are ignited by the fireball or other effect then all of the duplicate's clothes appear to be burning and smoking too.


            • If the caster is slashed with a sword and starts to bleed then all of the images will appear to have the same wound.


            • If the caster is hit by an arrow then all of the images will appear to have the same arrow stuck in them. The arrow is "attached" and therefore gets duplicated. If the caster pulls the arrow out and throws it on the ground then it is no longer attached and only one discarded arrow will be seen.


            So far I think the implications will be agreed on by everybody. The next ones are more likely to be contentious.



            • If a large net is dropped over the area of the caster, the actual net falls over the caster but simply passes through the duplicates. The duplicates are not dispelled because letting a net fall over a fixed location does not have an attack roll. It just falls through the illusory copies and lands on the ground. But given the above assumptions, the net is now "attached" to the caster just like their clothes and just just like an arrow that hits them during the fight. That means that every duplicate also has its own net. If there are 2 duplicates then it will appear that there are 3 nets overlapped and moving all around and there is still no way to identify the real caster from the duplicates. This also means that nobody will know which of the nets is real so the caster's allies will have problems trying to cut him out of the net. If the caster gets free of the net then the net is no longer duplicated and you only see one net on the ground.

            Finally we get to the subject of this question. What happens on a grapple?



            • If a character is successful in a grapple then they are "attached" to the caster just like the net or the arrow. The person who is holding onto the caster will also be duplicated and bystanders will still have no way of knowing which is the real thing. The caster's enemies will still not know which is the actual caster instead of a copy. The casters's allies will not know which of the grapplers is real and will have problems fighting the grappler off of the caster. Everybody will see multiple identical copies of the 2 people wrestling on the ground. If the caster is able to get free then the grappler is no longer attached and therefore no longer duplicated.

            The spell is a visual illusion and says that it does not effect creatures that do not rely on sight. So long as the grapple is in effect, the grappler and the caster are touching each other and do not need to rely on sight for melee attacks against each other so these attacks will not be against a copy.



            Based on my interpretation, a successful grapple negates the effects of the mirror image since it allows the grappler to use non-visual sense (touch) to know where the caster is located, but only for the creature who successfully grappled and only so long as they can keep their grip on the caster. Since my interpretation is that the grappler will also be duplicated, nobody else in the room knows which is the real image and which are the illusions so the spell is not negated for any of them.






            share|improve this answer











            $endgroup$












            • $begingroup$
              I added a paragraph at the end to summarize my interpretation.
              $endgroup$
              – krb
              Mar 22 at 2:44










            • $begingroup$
              Very good. Well thought out and explained. I'm not sure that this is RAW or RAI but I think it is how I would rule it and it is the most logically consistant. +1
              $endgroup$
              – linksassin
              Mar 22 at 2:56










            • $begingroup$
              I love this, and will almost certainly implement this in my games going forwards!
              $endgroup$
              – SeriousBri
              Mar 22 at 9:19






            • 2




              $begingroup$
              It may be helpful to others to lead with your ruling. I think you're saying that, by the rules, the grappler doesn't deal with the grappled mirror image, but all other creatures would.
              $endgroup$
              – NautArch
              Mar 22 at 16:02


















            -4












            $begingroup$

            Yes, it is valid to negate a spell's, such as Mirror Image, benefits by making it obvious what the result of the spell is.



            Spells in D&D 5e do exactly what they say they do. There is no 'just flavor text' in 5th Edition. They do no less, but also no more than the words as described. This does not, however, mean that spells are always effective. Mirror Images provides some examples of how to overcome itself, both magically and mundanely.



            Mechanically, Mirror Images does not provide a comprehensive list of caveats for methods that would identify you. I'm not saying it should be defeated by something like throwing a sack of flour over the spellcaster's square (the images likely conform to however you look at that moment); however, another creature being affected by the spell is far beyond its power and there is little other way to explain what a target sees when you successfully Grapple one of the images.



            Notably, the description of Mirror Image's function is




            it’s impossible to track which image is real.




            You do not have to 'track' which image is real if you're simply attacking whatever your ally is holding. This is closer to "[relying] on senses other than sight" or "[perceiving the] illusions as false".



            There are other instances of spells, especially illusion spells, being overcome and their effects no longer being effective (even if the spell is still active). While it is initially strange that the second paragraph of the spell is negated, that is the result.



            Additionally, successfully grappling a target affected by Mirror Images deserves some form of reward, and being able to show your party "look, this is the Wizard" until they remove themselves from your grasp seems appropriate to me.






            share|improve this answer











            $endgroup$








            • 1




              $begingroup$
              what rules are you citing though? Your first line would seem to actively suggest you should be ruling the other way and I see no other rules discussed at all.
              $endgroup$
              – Rubiksmoose
              Mar 21 at 17:13







            • 3




              $begingroup$
              I think it'd be fine to say, "No, this wouldn't work" and explain why, then explain why you think the DM should "reward" this behavior. Right now your header doesn't really address whether this would work by the rules, and the part of your answer that does so is unclear and doesn't cite any relevant rules (it just asserts certain things to be true).
              $endgroup$
              – V2Blast
              Mar 21 at 17:26






            • 3




              $begingroup$
              You say "spells do only what they say they do". The spell says "it's impossible to track which image is real". How do you square this with your ruling? It seems like your first line is still arguing the opposite of what the rest of your answer says. Can you clarify more here?
              $endgroup$
              – Rubiksmoose
              Mar 21 at 19:32






            • 3




              $begingroup$
              @Ifusaso The confusion seems to be that the "Spells... do exactly what they say they do" and the spell's "...it's impossible to tell which image is real" statements suggest the opposite of what you are trying to say. Since the spell does not give a caveat for if the target is grappled, then a strict application of your opening line means that the target and its images must remain indistinguishable in spite of being physically grappled. Perhaps if you were to reconcile the apparent discrepancy, the confusion would disappear.
              $endgroup$
              – MrSpudtastic
              Mar 21 at 22:17






            • 3




              $begingroup$
              The reward for grappling someone who uses Mirror Image is that they are now considered grappled. If spells only do what they say they do, the same should apply for the grappled condition. Mirror Image doesn't require movement speed to work, so the grapple should not affect it. The grappled creature can still move and dodge within its square.
              $endgroup$
              – The Raven Queen
              Mar 22 at 9:22










            Your Answer





            StackExchange.ifUsing("editor", function ()
            return StackExchange.using("mathjaxEditing", function ()
            StackExchange.MarkdownEditor.creationCallbacks.add(function (editor, postfix)
            StackExchange.mathjaxEditing.prepareWmdForMathJax(editor, postfix, [["\$", "\$"]]);
            );
            );
            , "mathjax-editing");

            StackExchange.ready(function()
            var channelOptions =
            tags: "".split(" "),
            id: "122"
            ;
            initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

            StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function()
            // Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
            if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled)
            StackExchange.using("snippets", function()
            createEditor();
            );

            else
            createEditor();

            );

            function createEditor()
            StackExchange.prepareEditor(
            heartbeatType: 'answer',
            autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
            convertImagesToLinks: false,
            noModals: true,
            showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
            reputationToPostImages: null,
            bindNavPrevention: true,
            postfix: "",
            imageUploader:
            brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
            contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
            allowUrls: true
            ,
            noCode: true, onDemand: true,
            discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
            ,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
            );



            );













            draft saved

            draft discarded


















            StackExchange.ready(
            function ()
            StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2frpg.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f143636%2fdoes-grappling-negate-mirror-image%23new-answer', 'question_page');

            );

            Post as a guest















            Required, but never shown

























            3 Answers
            3






            active

            oldest

            votes








            3 Answers
            3






            active

            oldest

            votes









            active

            oldest

            votes






            active

            oldest

            votes









            14












            $begingroup$

            No



            The mirror image rules still apply because the spell is still active. The 'fluff' or narrative of description of why is up to the DM.



            The only ways to bypass are if you aren't making an attack roll or if it is dispelled /suppressed.



            Narrative example



            To help give some substance to this, a possible description I would use is:




            You're holding him with one hand, but his images are moving so quickly around it that even though you've got one hand on him, you really don't know where he is. Magic, man, it's wacky.




            Table Reasons not to allow it



            I'd also heavily consider what it would mean to allow grappling to negate the spell effect. If it's a player casting it, they've just used up a 2nd level slot to do so (which could be very impactful depending on the level of the caster). It's less of an issue for later, but resources are resources.



            It also starts to open up potential other issues for why do some things work against it and others not.



            Letting the spell do its job is both within the rules and makes good sense.






            share|improve this answer











            $endgroup$

















              14












              $begingroup$

              No



              The mirror image rules still apply because the spell is still active. The 'fluff' or narrative of description of why is up to the DM.



              The only ways to bypass are if you aren't making an attack roll or if it is dispelled /suppressed.



              Narrative example



              To help give some substance to this, a possible description I would use is:




              You're holding him with one hand, but his images are moving so quickly around it that even though you've got one hand on him, you really don't know where he is. Magic, man, it's wacky.




              Table Reasons not to allow it



              I'd also heavily consider what it would mean to allow grappling to negate the spell effect. If it's a player casting it, they've just used up a 2nd level slot to do so (which could be very impactful depending on the level of the caster). It's less of an issue for later, but resources are resources.



              It also starts to open up potential other issues for why do some things work against it and others not.



              Letting the spell do its job is both within the rules and makes good sense.






              share|improve this answer











              $endgroup$















                14












                14








                14





                $begingroup$

                No



                The mirror image rules still apply because the spell is still active. The 'fluff' or narrative of description of why is up to the DM.



                The only ways to bypass are if you aren't making an attack roll or if it is dispelled /suppressed.



                Narrative example



                To help give some substance to this, a possible description I would use is:




                You're holding him with one hand, but his images are moving so quickly around it that even though you've got one hand on him, you really don't know where he is. Magic, man, it's wacky.




                Table Reasons not to allow it



                I'd also heavily consider what it would mean to allow grappling to negate the spell effect. If it's a player casting it, they've just used up a 2nd level slot to do so (which could be very impactful depending on the level of the caster). It's less of an issue for later, but resources are resources.



                It also starts to open up potential other issues for why do some things work against it and others not.



                Letting the spell do its job is both within the rules and makes good sense.






                share|improve this answer











                $endgroup$



                No



                The mirror image rules still apply because the spell is still active. The 'fluff' or narrative of description of why is up to the DM.



                The only ways to bypass are if you aren't making an attack roll or if it is dispelled /suppressed.



                Narrative example



                To help give some substance to this, a possible description I would use is:




                You're holding him with one hand, but his images are moving so quickly around it that even though you've got one hand on him, you really don't know where he is. Magic, man, it's wacky.




                Table Reasons not to allow it



                I'd also heavily consider what it would mean to allow grappling to negate the spell effect. If it's a player casting it, they've just used up a 2nd level slot to do so (which could be very impactful depending on the level of the caster). It's less of an issue for later, but resources are resources.



                It also starts to open up potential other issues for why do some things work against it and others not.



                Letting the spell do its job is both within the rules and makes good sense.







                share|improve this answer














                share|improve this answer



                share|improve this answer








                edited Mar 21 at 18:00

























                answered Mar 21 at 15:05









                NautArchNautArch

                61.2k8219406




                61.2k8219406























                    5












                    $begingroup$

                    I am sure that others will disagree, but here is how I have always interpreted it and the logic for my decision. I have never had a complaint from any players when this explanation is provided. It involves inferring several factors that are not explicitly stated in RAW but so far as I know it complies with RAW and provides a logically consistent experience within the story.



                    Assumptions about mirror image:



                    1. The duplicates of the caster are not naked. The images include all clothes, armor, weapons, items, etc. that can are visible on the caster. It will also include any "visual effects" that exist at time of casting. If the caster's hair is on fire when the spell is cast then all of the duplicates will have burning hair. I even extend it to the ground immediately around them. If there is dust or powder on the ground getting kicked up by the casters feet as they move then all of the images will seem to be kicking up dust. Anything "attached" to the caster and visible to the players is duplicated and is visible on the duplicates. Anything else means that there is a difference between the images that could be used to identify which are fake.


                    2. The duplicates are constantly updated to always be identical to the caster as defined in assumption #1 so the spell effect of making them impossible to tell apart is maintained for the duration of the spell.


                    Mechanical implications:



                    • If the caster is knocked to the ground by a fireball then all of the copies fall to the ground.


                    • If the caster's clothes get charred by a fire then the clothes on all of the duplicates appear charred.


                    • If the caster's clothes are ignited by the fireball or other effect then all of the duplicate's clothes appear to be burning and smoking too.


                    • If the caster is slashed with a sword and starts to bleed then all of the images will appear to have the same wound.


                    • If the caster is hit by an arrow then all of the images will appear to have the same arrow stuck in them. The arrow is "attached" and therefore gets duplicated. If the caster pulls the arrow out and throws it on the ground then it is no longer attached and only one discarded arrow will be seen.


                    So far I think the implications will be agreed on by everybody. The next ones are more likely to be contentious.



                    • If a large net is dropped over the area of the caster, the actual net falls over the caster but simply passes through the duplicates. The duplicates are not dispelled because letting a net fall over a fixed location does not have an attack roll. It just falls through the illusory copies and lands on the ground. But given the above assumptions, the net is now "attached" to the caster just like their clothes and just just like an arrow that hits them during the fight. That means that every duplicate also has its own net. If there are 2 duplicates then it will appear that there are 3 nets overlapped and moving all around and there is still no way to identify the real caster from the duplicates. This also means that nobody will know which of the nets is real so the caster's allies will have problems trying to cut him out of the net. If the caster gets free of the net then the net is no longer duplicated and you only see one net on the ground.

                    Finally we get to the subject of this question. What happens on a grapple?



                    • If a character is successful in a grapple then they are "attached" to the caster just like the net or the arrow. The person who is holding onto the caster will also be duplicated and bystanders will still have no way of knowing which is the real thing. The caster's enemies will still not know which is the actual caster instead of a copy. The casters's allies will not know which of the grapplers is real and will have problems fighting the grappler off of the caster. Everybody will see multiple identical copies of the 2 people wrestling on the ground. If the caster is able to get free then the grappler is no longer attached and therefore no longer duplicated.

                    The spell is a visual illusion and says that it does not effect creatures that do not rely on sight. So long as the grapple is in effect, the grappler and the caster are touching each other and do not need to rely on sight for melee attacks against each other so these attacks will not be against a copy.



                    Based on my interpretation, a successful grapple negates the effects of the mirror image since it allows the grappler to use non-visual sense (touch) to know where the caster is located, but only for the creature who successfully grappled and only so long as they can keep their grip on the caster. Since my interpretation is that the grappler will also be duplicated, nobody else in the room knows which is the real image and which are the illusions so the spell is not negated for any of them.






                    share|improve this answer











                    $endgroup$












                    • $begingroup$
                      I added a paragraph at the end to summarize my interpretation.
                      $endgroup$
                      – krb
                      Mar 22 at 2:44










                    • $begingroup$
                      Very good. Well thought out and explained. I'm not sure that this is RAW or RAI but I think it is how I would rule it and it is the most logically consistant. +1
                      $endgroup$
                      – linksassin
                      Mar 22 at 2:56










                    • $begingroup$
                      I love this, and will almost certainly implement this in my games going forwards!
                      $endgroup$
                      – SeriousBri
                      Mar 22 at 9:19






                    • 2




                      $begingroup$
                      It may be helpful to others to lead with your ruling. I think you're saying that, by the rules, the grappler doesn't deal with the grappled mirror image, but all other creatures would.
                      $endgroup$
                      – NautArch
                      Mar 22 at 16:02















                    5












                    $begingroup$

                    I am sure that others will disagree, but here is how I have always interpreted it and the logic for my decision. I have never had a complaint from any players when this explanation is provided. It involves inferring several factors that are not explicitly stated in RAW but so far as I know it complies with RAW and provides a logically consistent experience within the story.



                    Assumptions about mirror image:



                    1. The duplicates of the caster are not naked. The images include all clothes, armor, weapons, items, etc. that can are visible on the caster. It will also include any "visual effects" that exist at time of casting. If the caster's hair is on fire when the spell is cast then all of the duplicates will have burning hair. I even extend it to the ground immediately around them. If there is dust or powder on the ground getting kicked up by the casters feet as they move then all of the images will seem to be kicking up dust. Anything "attached" to the caster and visible to the players is duplicated and is visible on the duplicates. Anything else means that there is a difference between the images that could be used to identify which are fake.


                    2. The duplicates are constantly updated to always be identical to the caster as defined in assumption #1 so the spell effect of making them impossible to tell apart is maintained for the duration of the spell.


                    Mechanical implications:



                    • If the caster is knocked to the ground by a fireball then all of the copies fall to the ground.


                    • If the caster's clothes get charred by a fire then the clothes on all of the duplicates appear charred.


                    • If the caster's clothes are ignited by the fireball or other effect then all of the duplicate's clothes appear to be burning and smoking too.


                    • If the caster is slashed with a sword and starts to bleed then all of the images will appear to have the same wound.


                    • If the caster is hit by an arrow then all of the images will appear to have the same arrow stuck in them. The arrow is "attached" and therefore gets duplicated. If the caster pulls the arrow out and throws it on the ground then it is no longer attached and only one discarded arrow will be seen.


                    So far I think the implications will be agreed on by everybody. The next ones are more likely to be contentious.



                    • If a large net is dropped over the area of the caster, the actual net falls over the caster but simply passes through the duplicates. The duplicates are not dispelled because letting a net fall over a fixed location does not have an attack roll. It just falls through the illusory copies and lands on the ground. But given the above assumptions, the net is now "attached" to the caster just like their clothes and just just like an arrow that hits them during the fight. That means that every duplicate also has its own net. If there are 2 duplicates then it will appear that there are 3 nets overlapped and moving all around and there is still no way to identify the real caster from the duplicates. This also means that nobody will know which of the nets is real so the caster's allies will have problems trying to cut him out of the net. If the caster gets free of the net then the net is no longer duplicated and you only see one net on the ground.

                    Finally we get to the subject of this question. What happens on a grapple?



                    • If a character is successful in a grapple then they are "attached" to the caster just like the net or the arrow. The person who is holding onto the caster will also be duplicated and bystanders will still have no way of knowing which is the real thing. The caster's enemies will still not know which is the actual caster instead of a copy. The casters's allies will not know which of the grapplers is real and will have problems fighting the grappler off of the caster. Everybody will see multiple identical copies of the 2 people wrestling on the ground. If the caster is able to get free then the grappler is no longer attached and therefore no longer duplicated.

                    The spell is a visual illusion and says that it does not effect creatures that do not rely on sight. So long as the grapple is in effect, the grappler and the caster are touching each other and do not need to rely on sight for melee attacks against each other so these attacks will not be against a copy.



                    Based on my interpretation, a successful grapple negates the effects of the mirror image since it allows the grappler to use non-visual sense (touch) to know where the caster is located, but only for the creature who successfully grappled and only so long as they can keep their grip on the caster. Since my interpretation is that the grappler will also be duplicated, nobody else in the room knows which is the real image and which are the illusions so the spell is not negated for any of them.






                    share|improve this answer











                    $endgroup$












                    • $begingroup$
                      I added a paragraph at the end to summarize my interpretation.
                      $endgroup$
                      – krb
                      Mar 22 at 2:44










                    • $begingroup$
                      Very good. Well thought out and explained. I'm not sure that this is RAW or RAI but I think it is how I would rule it and it is the most logically consistant. +1
                      $endgroup$
                      – linksassin
                      Mar 22 at 2:56










                    • $begingroup$
                      I love this, and will almost certainly implement this in my games going forwards!
                      $endgroup$
                      – SeriousBri
                      Mar 22 at 9:19






                    • 2




                      $begingroup$
                      It may be helpful to others to lead with your ruling. I think you're saying that, by the rules, the grappler doesn't deal with the grappled mirror image, but all other creatures would.
                      $endgroup$
                      – NautArch
                      Mar 22 at 16:02













                    5












                    5








                    5





                    $begingroup$

                    I am sure that others will disagree, but here is how I have always interpreted it and the logic for my decision. I have never had a complaint from any players when this explanation is provided. It involves inferring several factors that are not explicitly stated in RAW but so far as I know it complies with RAW and provides a logically consistent experience within the story.



                    Assumptions about mirror image:



                    1. The duplicates of the caster are not naked. The images include all clothes, armor, weapons, items, etc. that can are visible on the caster. It will also include any "visual effects" that exist at time of casting. If the caster's hair is on fire when the spell is cast then all of the duplicates will have burning hair. I even extend it to the ground immediately around them. If there is dust or powder on the ground getting kicked up by the casters feet as they move then all of the images will seem to be kicking up dust. Anything "attached" to the caster and visible to the players is duplicated and is visible on the duplicates. Anything else means that there is a difference between the images that could be used to identify which are fake.


                    2. The duplicates are constantly updated to always be identical to the caster as defined in assumption #1 so the spell effect of making them impossible to tell apart is maintained for the duration of the spell.


                    Mechanical implications:



                    • If the caster is knocked to the ground by a fireball then all of the copies fall to the ground.


                    • If the caster's clothes get charred by a fire then the clothes on all of the duplicates appear charred.


                    • If the caster's clothes are ignited by the fireball or other effect then all of the duplicate's clothes appear to be burning and smoking too.


                    • If the caster is slashed with a sword and starts to bleed then all of the images will appear to have the same wound.


                    • If the caster is hit by an arrow then all of the images will appear to have the same arrow stuck in them. The arrow is "attached" and therefore gets duplicated. If the caster pulls the arrow out and throws it on the ground then it is no longer attached and only one discarded arrow will be seen.


                    So far I think the implications will be agreed on by everybody. The next ones are more likely to be contentious.



                    • If a large net is dropped over the area of the caster, the actual net falls over the caster but simply passes through the duplicates. The duplicates are not dispelled because letting a net fall over a fixed location does not have an attack roll. It just falls through the illusory copies and lands on the ground. But given the above assumptions, the net is now "attached" to the caster just like their clothes and just just like an arrow that hits them during the fight. That means that every duplicate also has its own net. If there are 2 duplicates then it will appear that there are 3 nets overlapped and moving all around and there is still no way to identify the real caster from the duplicates. This also means that nobody will know which of the nets is real so the caster's allies will have problems trying to cut him out of the net. If the caster gets free of the net then the net is no longer duplicated and you only see one net on the ground.

                    Finally we get to the subject of this question. What happens on a grapple?



                    • If a character is successful in a grapple then they are "attached" to the caster just like the net or the arrow. The person who is holding onto the caster will also be duplicated and bystanders will still have no way of knowing which is the real thing. The caster's enemies will still not know which is the actual caster instead of a copy. The casters's allies will not know which of the grapplers is real and will have problems fighting the grappler off of the caster. Everybody will see multiple identical copies of the 2 people wrestling on the ground. If the caster is able to get free then the grappler is no longer attached and therefore no longer duplicated.

                    The spell is a visual illusion and says that it does not effect creatures that do not rely on sight. So long as the grapple is in effect, the grappler and the caster are touching each other and do not need to rely on sight for melee attacks against each other so these attacks will not be against a copy.



                    Based on my interpretation, a successful grapple negates the effects of the mirror image since it allows the grappler to use non-visual sense (touch) to know where the caster is located, but only for the creature who successfully grappled and only so long as they can keep their grip on the caster. Since my interpretation is that the grappler will also be duplicated, nobody else in the room knows which is the real image and which are the illusions so the spell is not negated for any of them.






                    share|improve this answer











                    $endgroup$



                    I am sure that others will disagree, but here is how I have always interpreted it and the logic for my decision. I have never had a complaint from any players when this explanation is provided. It involves inferring several factors that are not explicitly stated in RAW but so far as I know it complies with RAW and provides a logically consistent experience within the story.



                    Assumptions about mirror image:



                    1. The duplicates of the caster are not naked. The images include all clothes, armor, weapons, items, etc. that can are visible on the caster. It will also include any "visual effects" that exist at time of casting. If the caster's hair is on fire when the spell is cast then all of the duplicates will have burning hair. I even extend it to the ground immediately around them. If there is dust or powder on the ground getting kicked up by the casters feet as they move then all of the images will seem to be kicking up dust. Anything "attached" to the caster and visible to the players is duplicated and is visible on the duplicates. Anything else means that there is a difference between the images that could be used to identify which are fake.


                    2. The duplicates are constantly updated to always be identical to the caster as defined in assumption #1 so the spell effect of making them impossible to tell apart is maintained for the duration of the spell.


                    Mechanical implications:



                    • If the caster is knocked to the ground by a fireball then all of the copies fall to the ground.


                    • If the caster's clothes get charred by a fire then the clothes on all of the duplicates appear charred.


                    • If the caster's clothes are ignited by the fireball or other effect then all of the duplicate's clothes appear to be burning and smoking too.


                    • If the caster is slashed with a sword and starts to bleed then all of the images will appear to have the same wound.


                    • If the caster is hit by an arrow then all of the images will appear to have the same arrow stuck in them. The arrow is "attached" and therefore gets duplicated. If the caster pulls the arrow out and throws it on the ground then it is no longer attached and only one discarded arrow will be seen.


                    So far I think the implications will be agreed on by everybody. The next ones are more likely to be contentious.



                    • If a large net is dropped over the area of the caster, the actual net falls over the caster but simply passes through the duplicates. The duplicates are not dispelled because letting a net fall over a fixed location does not have an attack roll. It just falls through the illusory copies and lands on the ground. But given the above assumptions, the net is now "attached" to the caster just like their clothes and just just like an arrow that hits them during the fight. That means that every duplicate also has its own net. If there are 2 duplicates then it will appear that there are 3 nets overlapped and moving all around and there is still no way to identify the real caster from the duplicates. This also means that nobody will know which of the nets is real so the caster's allies will have problems trying to cut him out of the net. If the caster gets free of the net then the net is no longer duplicated and you only see one net on the ground.

                    Finally we get to the subject of this question. What happens on a grapple?



                    • If a character is successful in a grapple then they are "attached" to the caster just like the net or the arrow. The person who is holding onto the caster will also be duplicated and bystanders will still have no way of knowing which is the real thing. The caster's enemies will still not know which is the actual caster instead of a copy. The casters's allies will not know which of the grapplers is real and will have problems fighting the grappler off of the caster. Everybody will see multiple identical copies of the 2 people wrestling on the ground. If the caster is able to get free then the grappler is no longer attached and therefore no longer duplicated.

                    The spell is a visual illusion and says that it does not effect creatures that do not rely on sight. So long as the grapple is in effect, the grappler and the caster are touching each other and do not need to rely on sight for melee attacks against each other so these attacks will not be against a copy.



                    Based on my interpretation, a successful grapple negates the effects of the mirror image since it allows the grappler to use non-visual sense (touch) to know where the caster is located, but only for the creature who successfully grappled and only so long as they can keep their grip on the caster. Since my interpretation is that the grappler will also be duplicated, nobody else in the room knows which is the real image and which are the illusions so the spell is not negated for any of them.







                    share|improve this answer














                    share|improve this answer



                    share|improve this answer








                    edited Mar 22 at 14:43









                    Rubiksmoose

                    59.7k10287442




                    59.7k10287442










                    answered Mar 21 at 23:20









                    krbkrb

                    1,28329




                    1,28329











                    • $begingroup$
                      I added a paragraph at the end to summarize my interpretation.
                      $endgroup$
                      – krb
                      Mar 22 at 2:44










                    • $begingroup$
                      Very good. Well thought out and explained. I'm not sure that this is RAW or RAI but I think it is how I would rule it and it is the most logically consistant. +1
                      $endgroup$
                      – linksassin
                      Mar 22 at 2:56










                    • $begingroup$
                      I love this, and will almost certainly implement this in my games going forwards!
                      $endgroup$
                      – SeriousBri
                      Mar 22 at 9:19






                    • 2




                      $begingroup$
                      It may be helpful to others to lead with your ruling. I think you're saying that, by the rules, the grappler doesn't deal with the grappled mirror image, but all other creatures would.
                      $endgroup$
                      – NautArch
                      Mar 22 at 16:02
















                    • $begingroup$
                      I added a paragraph at the end to summarize my interpretation.
                      $endgroup$
                      – krb
                      Mar 22 at 2:44










                    • $begingroup$
                      Very good. Well thought out and explained. I'm not sure that this is RAW or RAI but I think it is how I would rule it and it is the most logically consistant. +1
                      $endgroup$
                      – linksassin
                      Mar 22 at 2:56










                    • $begingroup$
                      I love this, and will almost certainly implement this in my games going forwards!
                      $endgroup$
                      – SeriousBri
                      Mar 22 at 9:19






                    • 2




                      $begingroup$
                      It may be helpful to others to lead with your ruling. I think you're saying that, by the rules, the grappler doesn't deal with the grappled mirror image, but all other creatures would.
                      $endgroup$
                      – NautArch
                      Mar 22 at 16:02















                    $begingroup$
                    I added a paragraph at the end to summarize my interpretation.
                    $endgroup$
                    – krb
                    Mar 22 at 2:44




                    $begingroup$
                    I added a paragraph at the end to summarize my interpretation.
                    $endgroup$
                    – krb
                    Mar 22 at 2:44












                    $begingroup$
                    Very good. Well thought out and explained. I'm not sure that this is RAW or RAI but I think it is how I would rule it and it is the most logically consistant. +1
                    $endgroup$
                    – linksassin
                    Mar 22 at 2:56




                    $begingroup$
                    Very good. Well thought out and explained. I'm not sure that this is RAW or RAI but I think it is how I would rule it and it is the most logically consistant. +1
                    $endgroup$
                    – linksassin
                    Mar 22 at 2:56












                    $begingroup$
                    I love this, and will almost certainly implement this in my games going forwards!
                    $endgroup$
                    – SeriousBri
                    Mar 22 at 9:19




                    $begingroup$
                    I love this, and will almost certainly implement this in my games going forwards!
                    $endgroup$
                    – SeriousBri
                    Mar 22 at 9:19




                    2




                    2




                    $begingroup$
                    It may be helpful to others to lead with your ruling. I think you're saying that, by the rules, the grappler doesn't deal with the grappled mirror image, but all other creatures would.
                    $endgroup$
                    – NautArch
                    Mar 22 at 16:02




                    $begingroup$
                    It may be helpful to others to lead with your ruling. I think you're saying that, by the rules, the grappler doesn't deal with the grappled mirror image, but all other creatures would.
                    $endgroup$
                    – NautArch
                    Mar 22 at 16:02











                    -4












                    $begingroup$

                    Yes, it is valid to negate a spell's, such as Mirror Image, benefits by making it obvious what the result of the spell is.



                    Spells in D&D 5e do exactly what they say they do. There is no 'just flavor text' in 5th Edition. They do no less, but also no more than the words as described. This does not, however, mean that spells are always effective. Mirror Images provides some examples of how to overcome itself, both magically and mundanely.



                    Mechanically, Mirror Images does not provide a comprehensive list of caveats for methods that would identify you. I'm not saying it should be defeated by something like throwing a sack of flour over the spellcaster's square (the images likely conform to however you look at that moment); however, another creature being affected by the spell is far beyond its power and there is little other way to explain what a target sees when you successfully Grapple one of the images.



                    Notably, the description of Mirror Image's function is




                    it’s impossible to track which image is real.




                    You do not have to 'track' which image is real if you're simply attacking whatever your ally is holding. This is closer to "[relying] on senses other than sight" or "[perceiving the] illusions as false".



                    There are other instances of spells, especially illusion spells, being overcome and their effects no longer being effective (even if the spell is still active). While it is initially strange that the second paragraph of the spell is negated, that is the result.



                    Additionally, successfully grappling a target affected by Mirror Images deserves some form of reward, and being able to show your party "look, this is the Wizard" until they remove themselves from your grasp seems appropriate to me.






                    share|improve this answer











                    $endgroup$








                    • 1




                      $begingroup$
                      what rules are you citing though? Your first line would seem to actively suggest you should be ruling the other way and I see no other rules discussed at all.
                      $endgroup$
                      – Rubiksmoose
                      Mar 21 at 17:13







                    • 3




                      $begingroup$
                      I think it'd be fine to say, "No, this wouldn't work" and explain why, then explain why you think the DM should "reward" this behavior. Right now your header doesn't really address whether this would work by the rules, and the part of your answer that does so is unclear and doesn't cite any relevant rules (it just asserts certain things to be true).
                      $endgroup$
                      – V2Blast
                      Mar 21 at 17:26






                    • 3




                      $begingroup$
                      You say "spells do only what they say they do". The spell says "it's impossible to track which image is real". How do you square this with your ruling? It seems like your first line is still arguing the opposite of what the rest of your answer says. Can you clarify more here?
                      $endgroup$
                      – Rubiksmoose
                      Mar 21 at 19:32






                    • 3




                      $begingroup$
                      @Ifusaso The confusion seems to be that the "Spells... do exactly what they say they do" and the spell's "...it's impossible to tell which image is real" statements suggest the opposite of what you are trying to say. Since the spell does not give a caveat for if the target is grappled, then a strict application of your opening line means that the target and its images must remain indistinguishable in spite of being physically grappled. Perhaps if you were to reconcile the apparent discrepancy, the confusion would disappear.
                      $endgroup$
                      – MrSpudtastic
                      Mar 21 at 22:17






                    • 3




                      $begingroup$
                      The reward for grappling someone who uses Mirror Image is that they are now considered grappled. If spells only do what they say they do, the same should apply for the grappled condition. Mirror Image doesn't require movement speed to work, so the grapple should not affect it. The grappled creature can still move and dodge within its square.
                      $endgroup$
                      – The Raven Queen
                      Mar 22 at 9:22















                    -4












                    $begingroup$

                    Yes, it is valid to negate a spell's, such as Mirror Image, benefits by making it obvious what the result of the spell is.



                    Spells in D&D 5e do exactly what they say they do. There is no 'just flavor text' in 5th Edition. They do no less, but also no more than the words as described. This does not, however, mean that spells are always effective. Mirror Images provides some examples of how to overcome itself, both magically and mundanely.



                    Mechanically, Mirror Images does not provide a comprehensive list of caveats for methods that would identify you. I'm not saying it should be defeated by something like throwing a sack of flour over the spellcaster's square (the images likely conform to however you look at that moment); however, another creature being affected by the spell is far beyond its power and there is little other way to explain what a target sees when you successfully Grapple one of the images.



                    Notably, the description of Mirror Image's function is




                    it’s impossible to track which image is real.




                    You do not have to 'track' which image is real if you're simply attacking whatever your ally is holding. This is closer to "[relying] on senses other than sight" or "[perceiving the] illusions as false".



                    There are other instances of spells, especially illusion spells, being overcome and their effects no longer being effective (even if the spell is still active). While it is initially strange that the second paragraph of the spell is negated, that is the result.



                    Additionally, successfully grappling a target affected by Mirror Images deserves some form of reward, and being able to show your party "look, this is the Wizard" until they remove themselves from your grasp seems appropriate to me.






                    share|improve this answer











                    $endgroup$








                    • 1




                      $begingroup$
                      what rules are you citing though? Your first line would seem to actively suggest you should be ruling the other way and I see no other rules discussed at all.
                      $endgroup$
                      – Rubiksmoose
                      Mar 21 at 17:13







                    • 3




                      $begingroup$
                      I think it'd be fine to say, "No, this wouldn't work" and explain why, then explain why you think the DM should "reward" this behavior. Right now your header doesn't really address whether this would work by the rules, and the part of your answer that does so is unclear and doesn't cite any relevant rules (it just asserts certain things to be true).
                      $endgroup$
                      – V2Blast
                      Mar 21 at 17:26






                    • 3




                      $begingroup$
                      You say "spells do only what they say they do". The spell says "it's impossible to track which image is real". How do you square this with your ruling? It seems like your first line is still arguing the opposite of what the rest of your answer says. Can you clarify more here?
                      $endgroup$
                      – Rubiksmoose
                      Mar 21 at 19:32






                    • 3




                      $begingroup$
                      @Ifusaso The confusion seems to be that the "Spells... do exactly what they say they do" and the spell's "...it's impossible to tell which image is real" statements suggest the opposite of what you are trying to say. Since the spell does not give a caveat for if the target is grappled, then a strict application of your opening line means that the target and its images must remain indistinguishable in spite of being physically grappled. Perhaps if you were to reconcile the apparent discrepancy, the confusion would disappear.
                      $endgroup$
                      – MrSpudtastic
                      Mar 21 at 22:17






                    • 3




                      $begingroup$
                      The reward for grappling someone who uses Mirror Image is that they are now considered grappled. If spells only do what they say they do, the same should apply for the grappled condition. Mirror Image doesn't require movement speed to work, so the grapple should not affect it. The grappled creature can still move and dodge within its square.
                      $endgroup$
                      – The Raven Queen
                      Mar 22 at 9:22













                    -4












                    -4








                    -4





                    $begingroup$

                    Yes, it is valid to negate a spell's, such as Mirror Image, benefits by making it obvious what the result of the spell is.



                    Spells in D&D 5e do exactly what they say they do. There is no 'just flavor text' in 5th Edition. They do no less, but also no more than the words as described. This does not, however, mean that spells are always effective. Mirror Images provides some examples of how to overcome itself, both magically and mundanely.



                    Mechanically, Mirror Images does not provide a comprehensive list of caveats for methods that would identify you. I'm not saying it should be defeated by something like throwing a sack of flour over the spellcaster's square (the images likely conform to however you look at that moment); however, another creature being affected by the spell is far beyond its power and there is little other way to explain what a target sees when you successfully Grapple one of the images.



                    Notably, the description of Mirror Image's function is




                    it’s impossible to track which image is real.




                    You do not have to 'track' which image is real if you're simply attacking whatever your ally is holding. This is closer to "[relying] on senses other than sight" or "[perceiving the] illusions as false".



                    There are other instances of spells, especially illusion spells, being overcome and their effects no longer being effective (even if the spell is still active). While it is initially strange that the second paragraph of the spell is negated, that is the result.



                    Additionally, successfully grappling a target affected by Mirror Images deserves some form of reward, and being able to show your party "look, this is the Wizard" until they remove themselves from your grasp seems appropriate to me.






                    share|improve this answer











                    $endgroup$



                    Yes, it is valid to negate a spell's, such as Mirror Image, benefits by making it obvious what the result of the spell is.



                    Spells in D&D 5e do exactly what they say they do. There is no 'just flavor text' in 5th Edition. They do no less, but also no more than the words as described. This does not, however, mean that spells are always effective. Mirror Images provides some examples of how to overcome itself, both magically and mundanely.



                    Mechanically, Mirror Images does not provide a comprehensive list of caveats for methods that would identify you. I'm not saying it should be defeated by something like throwing a sack of flour over the spellcaster's square (the images likely conform to however you look at that moment); however, another creature being affected by the spell is far beyond its power and there is little other way to explain what a target sees when you successfully Grapple one of the images.



                    Notably, the description of Mirror Image's function is




                    it’s impossible to track which image is real.




                    You do not have to 'track' which image is real if you're simply attacking whatever your ally is holding. This is closer to "[relying] on senses other than sight" or "[perceiving the] illusions as false".



                    There are other instances of spells, especially illusion spells, being overcome and their effects no longer being effective (even if the spell is still active). While it is initially strange that the second paragraph of the spell is negated, that is the result.



                    Additionally, successfully grappling a target affected by Mirror Images deserves some form of reward, and being able to show your party "look, this is the Wizard" until they remove themselves from your grasp seems appropriate to me.







                    share|improve this answer














                    share|improve this answer



                    share|improve this answer








                    edited Mar 21 at 21:04









                    V2Blast

                    25.7k488158




                    25.7k488158










                    answered Mar 21 at 15:45









                    IfusasoIfusaso

                    11.6k2068




                    11.6k2068







                    • 1




                      $begingroup$
                      what rules are you citing though? Your first line would seem to actively suggest you should be ruling the other way and I see no other rules discussed at all.
                      $endgroup$
                      – Rubiksmoose
                      Mar 21 at 17:13







                    • 3




                      $begingroup$
                      I think it'd be fine to say, "No, this wouldn't work" and explain why, then explain why you think the DM should "reward" this behavior. Right now your header doesn't really address whether this would work by the rules, and the part of your answer that does so is unclear and doesn't cite any relevant rules (it just asserts certain things to be true).
                      $endgroup$
                      – V2Blast
                      Mar 21 at 17:26






                    • 3




                      $begingroup$
                      You say "spells do only what they say they do". The spell says "it's impossible to track which image is real". How do you square this with your ruling? It seems like your first line is still arguing the opposite of what the rest of your answer says. Can you clarify more here?
                      $endgroup$
                      – Rubiksmoose
                      Mar 21 at 19:32






                    • 3




                      $begingroup$
                      @Ifusaso The confusion seems to be that the "Spells... do exactly what they say they do" and the spell's "...it's impossible to tell which image is real" statements suggest the opposite of what you are trying to say. Since the spell does not give a caveat for if the target is grappled, then a strict application of your opening line means that the target and its images must remain indistinguishable in spite of being physically grappled. Perhaps if you were to reconcile the apparent discrepancy, the confusion would disappear.
                      $endgroup$
                      – MrSpudtastic
                      Mar 21 at 22:17






                    • 3




                      $begingroup$
                      The reward for grappling someone who uses Mirror Image is that they are now considered grappled. If spells only do what they say they do, the same should apply for the grappled condition. Mirror Image doesn't require movement speed to work, so the grapple should not affect it. The grappled creature can still move and dodge within its square.
                      $endgroup$
                      – The Raven Queen
                      Mar 22 at 9:22












                    • 1




                      $begingroup$
                      what rules are you citing though? Your first line would seem to actively suggest you should be ruling the other way and I see no other rules discussed at all.
                      $endgroup$
                      – Rubiksmoose
                      Mar 21 at 17:13







                    • 3




                      $begingroup$
                      I think it'd be fine to say, "No, this wouldn't work" and explain why, then explain why you think the DM should "reward" this behavior. Right now your header doesn't really address whether this would work by the rules, and the part of your answer that does so is unclear and doesn't cite any relevant rules (it just asserts certain things to be true).
                      $endgroup$
                      – V2Blast
                      Mar 21 at 17:26






                    • 3




                      $begingroup$
                      You say "spells do only what they say they do". The spell says "it's impossible to track which image is real". How do you square this with your ruling? It seems like your first line is still arguing the opposite of what the rest of your answer says. Can you clarify more here?
                      $endgroup$
                      – Rubiksmoose
                      Mar 21 at 19:32






                    • 3




                      $begingroup$
                      @Ifusaso The confusion seems to be that the "Spells... do exactly what they say they do" and the spell's "...it's impossible to tell which image is real" statements suggest the opposite of what you are trying to say. Since the spell does not give a caveat for if the target is grappled, then a strict application of your opening line means that the target and its images must remain indistinguishable in spite of being physically grappled. Perhaps if you were to reconcile the apparent discrepancy, the confusion would disappear.
                      $endgroup$
                      – MrSpudtastic
                      Mar 21 at 22:17






                    • 3




                      $begingroup$
                      The reward for grappling someone who uses Mirror Image is that they are now considered grappled. If spells only do what they say they do, the same should apply for the grappled condition. Mirror Image doesn't require movement speed to work, so the grapple should not affect it. The grappled creature can still move and dodge within its square.
                      $endgroup$
                      – The Raven Queen
                      Mar 22 at 9:22







                    1




                    1




                    $begingroup$
                    what rules are you citing though? Your first line would seem to actively suggest you should be ruling the other way and I see no other rules discussed at all.
                    $endgroup$
                    – Rubiksmoose
                    Mar 21 at 17:13





                    $begingroup$
                    what rules are you citing though? Your first line would seem to actively suggest you should be ruling the other way and I see no other rules discussed at all.
                    $endgroup$
                    – Rubiksmoose
                    Mar 21 at 17:13





                    3




                    3




                    $begingroup$
                    I think it'd be fine to say, "No, this wouldn't work" and explain why, then explain why you think the DM should "reward" this behavior. Right now your header doesn't really address whether this would work by the rules, and the part of your answer that does so is unclear and doesn't cite any relevant rules (it just asserts certain things to be true).
                    $endgroup$
                    – V2Blast
                    Mar 21 at 17:26




                    $begingroup$
                    I think it'd be fine to say, "No, this wouldn't work" and explain why, then explain why you think the DM should "reward" this behavior. Right now your header doesn't really address whether this would work by the rules, and the part of your answer that does so is unclear and doesn't cite any relevant rules (it just asserts certain things to be true).
                    $endgroup$
                    – V2Blast
                    Mar 21 at 17:26




                    3




                    3




                    $begingroup$
                    You say "spells do only what they say they do". The spell says "it's impossible to track which image is real". How do you square this with your ruling? It seems like your first line is still arguing the opposite of what the rest of your answer says. Can you clarify more here?
                    $endgroup$
                    – Rubiksmoose
                    Mar 21 at 19:32




                    $begingroup$
                    You say "spells do only what they say they do". The spell says "it's impossible to track which image is real". How do you square this with your ruling? It seems like your first line is still arguing the opposite of what the rest of your answer says. Can you clarify more here?
                    $endgroup$
                    – Rubiksmoose
                    Mar 21 at 19:32




                    3




                    3




                    $begingroup$
                    @Ifusaso The confusion seems to be that the "Spells... do exactly what they say they do" and the spell's "...it's impossible to tell which image is real" statements suggest the opposite of what you are trying to say. Since the spell does not give a caveat for if the target is grappled, then a strict application of your opening line means that the target and its images must remain indistinguishable in spite of being physically grappled. Perhaps if you were to reconcile the apparent discrepancy, the confusion would disappear.
                    $endgroup$
                    – MrSpudtastic
                    Mar 21 at 22:17




                    $begingroup$
                    @Ifusaso The confusion seems to be that the "Spells... do exactly what they say they do" and the spell's "...it's impossible to tell which image is real" statements suggest the opposite of what you are trying to say. Since the spell does not give a caveat for if the target is grappled, then a strict application of your opening line means that the target and its images must remain indistinguishable in spite of being physically grappled. Perhaps if you were to reconcile the apparent discrepancy, the confusion would disappear.
                    $endgroup$
                    – MrSpudtastic
                    Mar 21 at 22:17




                    3




                    3




                    $begingroup$
                    The reward for grappling someone who uses Mirror Image is that they are now considered grappled. If spells only do what they say they do, the same should apply for the grappled condition. Mirror Image doesn't require movement speed to work, so the grapple should not affect it. The grappled creature can still move and dodge within its square.
                    $endgroup$
                    – The Raven Queen
                    Mar 22 at 9:22




                    $begingroup$
                    The reward for grappling someone who uses Mirror Image is that they are now considered grappled. If spells only do what they say they do, the same should apply for the grappled condition. Mirror Image doesn't require movement speed to work, so the grapple should not affect it. The grappled creature can still move and dodge within its square.
                    $endgroup$
                    – The Raven Queen
                    Mar 22 at 9:22

















                    draft saved

                    draft discarded
















































                    Thanks for contributing an answer to Role-playing Games Stack Exchange!


                    • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

                    But avoid


                    • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

                    • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.

                    Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.


                    To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




                    draft saved


                    draft discarded














                    StackExchange.ready(
                    function ()
                    StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2frpg.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f143636%2fdoes-grappling-negate-mirror-image%23new-answer', 'question_page');

                    );

                    Post as a guest















                    Required, but never shown





















































                    Required, but never shown














                    Required, but never shown












                    Required, but never shown







                    Required, but never shown

































                    Required, but never shown














                    Required, but never shown












                    Required, but never shown







                    Required, but never shown







                    Popular posts from this blog

                    Adding axes to figuresAdding axes labels to LaTeX figuresLaTeX equivalent of ConTeXt buffersRotate a node but not its content: the case of the ellipse decorationHow to define the default vertical distance between nodes?TikZ scaling graphic and adjust node position and keep font sizeNumerical conditional within tikz keys?adding axes to shapesAlign axes across subfiguresAdding figures with a certain orderLine up nested tikz enviroments or how to get rid of themAdding axes labels to LaTeX figures

                    Luettelo Yhdysvaltain laivaston lentotukialuksista Lähteet | Navigointivalikko

                    Gary (muusikko) Sisällysluettelo Historia | Rockin' High | Lähteet | Aiheesta muualla | NavigointivalikkoInfobox OKTuomas "Gary" Keskinen Ancaran kitaristiksiProjekti Rockin' High