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Was the old ablative pronoun “med” or “mēd”?
Planned maintenance scheduled April 23, 2019 at 00:00UTC (8:00pm US/Eastern)
Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara
Unicorn Meta Zoo #1: Why another podcast?Short vowels in lucubrandoInterpretation of circumflex in a poem from 1621Vowel compensation for intervocalic -ss- > -s-Etymology and pronunciation of words ending in “-iasis”Why ĭdem instead of iddem or īdem in neuter?How do we know that the alpha in μυῖα is short and the alpha in γενεά is long?Understanding Lewis and Short: Why sūbĭcĭo and not subjĭcĭo?Why do some pronoun nominatives look like vocatives?How can you tell whether prefixed ‘in-’ is the preposition ‘in’ or Indo-European ‘in-’?Quality of final ĕ ĭ ŏ
In Classical times, the first singular ablative pronoun ("from me") was mē, with a long ē. However, the older form seems to have been med, with a final -d.
Do we know whether this earlier form was med or mēd? In other words, was the vowel long or short? Evidence from etymology, or poetry, or an apex in an inscription, etc, would all be appreciated: since it's an older form, I doubt there'll be as many attestations.
pronomina vowel-quantity old-latin
asked Apr 3 at 0:22
DraconisDraconis
18.8k22576
add a comment |
In Classical times, the first singular ablative pronoun ("from me") was mē, with a long ē. However, the older form seems to have been med, with a final -d.
Do we know whether this earlier form was med or mēd? In other words, was the vowel long or short? Evidence from etymology, or poetry, or an apex in an inscription, etc, would all be appreciated: since it's an older form, I doubt there'll be as many attestations.
pronomina vowel-quantity old-latin
asked Apr 3 at 0:22
DraconisDraconis
18.8k22576
add a comment |
In Classical times, the first singular ablative pronoun ("from me") was mē, with a long ē. However, the older form seems to have been med, with a final -d.
Do we know whether this earlier form was med or mēd? In other words, was the vowel long or short? Evidence from etymology, or poetry, or an apex in an inscription, etc, would all be appreciated: since it's an older form, I doubt there'll be as many attestations.
pronomina vowel-quantity old-latin
asked Apr 3 at 0:22
DraconisDraconis
18.8k22576
In Classical times, the first singular ablative pronoun ("from me") was mē, with a long ē. However, the older form seems to have been med, with a final -d.
Do we know whether this earlier form was med or mēd? In other words, was the vowel long or short? Evidence from etymology, or poetry, or an apex in an inscription, etc, would all be appreciated: since it's an older form, I doubt there'll be as many attestations.
pronomina vowel-quantity old-latin
pronomina vowel-quantity old-latin
asked Apr 3 at 0:22
DraconisDraconis
18.8k22576
asked Apr 3 at 0:22
DraconisDraconis
18.8k22576
asked Apr 3 at 0:22
DraconisDraconis
18.8k22576
asked Apr 3 at 0:22
DraconisDraconis
18.8k22576
asked Apr 3 at 0:22
DraconisDraconis
18.8k22576
18.8k22576
add a comment |
add a comment |
2 Answers
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As varro says, the forms are reconstructed with a long vowel, as mēd, tēd, sēd. AFAIK there's no direct evidence for the vowel quantity. The reason for the long-vowel reconstruction is that there seems to have been a sound change between Old Latin and Classical Latin in which final -d was lost after a long vowel; this is the reason for the final long vowel of ablatives in -ā (< -ād), -ō, (< -ōd), etc.
The loss of -d is thought to have occurred only after long vowels. I'm not sure how certain we can be about that, though. Old Latin did have -d after short vowels, resulting from word-final voicing, e.g. FECED = fecit, and it's true that these were not lost. But it's also true that these -d were replaced by -t (perhaps analogically) at some point, and if that happened before the -d-loss sound change, then these forms aren't evidence either way.
As Sihler mentions, Sanskrit has short vowels in the corresponding forms (mat) etc., but as he says, it's plausible that these could have been lengthened in Latin by analogy to the noun declensions, so that also isn't too helpful.
There may well be other relevant evidence I'm missing, but it seems that the answer is "probably the vowel was long but we can't be sure".
answered Apr 4 at 4:53
TKRTKR
14.6k3259
add a comment |
This is what Andrew Sihler says in his New Comparative Grammar of Greek and Latin:
Abl.sg. L. mē, tē, sē, are from OL mēd, tēd, sēd, with the same
ablative -d as in nouns and other pronouns. Cf. Ved. mát, tvát, ...
whose short vowels, being unexpected, are likely to be faithful to the
original state of affairs. The significance of the long vowels in L.
is ambiguous; they may be from lengthening in monosyllables, but are
more likely to be importations from the otherwise ubiquitous long
vowels in the abl. ending of various noun classes.
answered Apr 3 at 1:55
varrovarro
3,9551316
What does the abbreviationVed.in that quote mean?
– Wilson
Apr 3 at 8:50
@Wilson..... Vedic
– fdb
Apr 3 at 9:18
I'm not sure this really answers the question; the quote from Sihler states that the e was long, but it doesn't say how we know this.
– TKR
Apr 4 at 4:35
add a comment |
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2 Answers
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2 Answers
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As varro says, the forms are reconstructed with a long vowel, as mēd, tēd, sēd. AFAIK there's no direct evidence for the vowel quantity. The reason for the long-vowel reconstruction is that there seems to have been a sound change between Old Latin and Classical Latin in which final -d was lost after a long vowel; this is the reason for the final long vowel of ablatives in -ā (< -ād), -ō, (< -ōd), etc.
The loss of -d is thought to have occurred only after long vowels. I'm not sure how certain we can be about that, though. Old Latin did have -d after short vowels, resulting from word-final voicing, e.g. FECED = fecit, and it's true that these were not lost. But it's also true that these -d were replaced by -t (perhaps analogically) at some point, and if that happened before the -d-loss sound change, then these forms aren't evidence either way.
As Sihler mentions, Sanskrit has short vowels in the corresponding forms (mat) etc., but as he says, it's plausible that these could have been lengthened in Latin by analogy to the noun declensions, so that also isn't too helpful.
There may well be other relevant evidence I'm missing, but it seems that the answer is "probably the vowel was long but we can't be sure".
answered Apr 4 at 4:53
TKRTKR
14.6k3259
add a comment |
As varro says, the forms are reconstructed with a long vowel, as mēd, tēd, sēd. AFAIK there's no direct evidence for the vowel quantity. The reason for the long-vowel reconstruction is that there seems to have been a sound change between Old Latin and Classical Latin in which final -d was lost after a long vowel; this is the reason for the final long vowel of ablatives in -ā (< -ād), -ō, (< -ōd), etc.
The loss of -d is thought to have occurred only after long vowels. I'm not sure how certain we can be about that, though. Old Latin did have -d after short vowels, resulting from word-final voicing, e.g. FECED = fecit, and it's true that these were not lost. But it's also true that these -d were replaced by -t (perhaps analogically) at some point, and if that happened before the -d-loss sound change, then these forms aren't evidence either way.
As Sihler mentions, Sanskrit has short vowels in the corresponding forms (mat) etc., but as he says, it's plausible that these could have been lengthened in Latin by analogy to the noun declensions, so that also isn't too helpful.
There may well be other relevant evidence I'm missing, but it seems that the answer is "probably the vowel was long but we can't be sure".
answered Apr 4 at 4:53
TKRTKR
14.6k3259
add a comment |
As varro says, the forms are reconstructed with a long vowel, as mēd, tēd, sēd. AFAIK there's no direct evidence for the vowel quantity. The reason for the long-vowel reconstruction is that there seems to have been a sound change between Old Latin and Classical Latin in which final -d was lost after a long vowel; this is the reason for the final long vowel of ablatives in -ā (< -ād), -ō, (< -ōd), etc.
The loss of -d is thought to have occurred only after long vowels. I'm not sure how certain we can be about that, though. Old Latin did have -d after short vowels, resulting from word-final voicing, e.g. FECED = fecit, and it's true that these were not lost. But it's also true that these -d were replaced by -t (perhaps analogically) at some point, and if that happened before the -d-loss sound change, then these forms aren't evidence either way.
As Sihler mentions, Sanskrit has short vowels in the corresponding forms (mat) etc., but as he says, it's plausible that these could have been lengthened in Latin by analogy to the noun declensions, so that also isn't too helpful.
There may well be other relevant evidence I'm missing, but it seems that the answer is "probably the vowel was long but we can't be sure".
answered Apr 4 at 4:53
TKRTKR
14.6k3259
As varro says, the forms are reconstructed with a long vowel, as mēd, tēd, sēd. AFAIK there's no direct evidence for the vowel quantity. The reason for the long-vowel reconstruction is that there seems to have been a sound change between Old Latin and Classical Latin in which final -d was lost after a long vowel; this is the reason for the final long vowel of ablatives in -ā (< -ād), -ō, (< -ōd), etc.
The loss of -d is thought to have occurred only after long vowels. I'm not sure how certain we can be about that, though. Old Latin did have -d after short vowels, resulting from word-final voicing, e.g. FECED = fecit, and it's true that these were not lost. But it's also true that these -d were replaced by -t (perhaps analogically) at some point, and if that happened before the -d-loss sound change, then these forms aren't evidence either way.
As Sihler mentions, Sanskrit has short vowels in the corresponding forms (mat) etc., but as he says, it's plausible that these could have been lengthened in Latin by analogy to the noun declensions, so that also isn't too helpful.
There may well be other relevant evidence I'm missing, but it seems that the answer is "probably the vowel was long but we can't be sure".
answered Apr 4 at 4:53
TKRTKR
14.6k3259
answered Apr 4 at 4:53
TKRTKR
14.6k3259
answered Apr 4 at 4:53
TKRTKR
14.6k3259
answered Apr 4 at 4:53
TKRTKR
14.6k3259
14.6k3259
add a comment |
add a comment |
This is what Andrew Sihler says in his New Comparative Grammar of Greek and Latin:
Abl.sg. L. mē, tē, sē, are from OL mēd, tēd, sēd, with the same
ablative -d as in nouns and other pronouns. Cf. Ved. mát, tvát, ...
whose short vowels, being unexpected, are likely to be faithful to the
original state of affairs. The significance of the long vowels in L.
is ambiguous; they may be from lengthening in monosyllables, but are
more likely to be importations from the otherwise ubiquitous long
vowels in the abl. ending of various noun classes.
answered Apr 3 at 1:55
varrovarro
3,9551316
What does the abbreviationVed.in that quote mean?
– Wilson
Apr 3 at 8:50
@Wilson..... Vedic
– fdb
Apr 3 at 9:18
I'm not sure this really answers the question; the quote from Sihler states that the e was long, but it doesn't say how we know this.
– TKR
Apr 4 at 4:35
add a comment |
This is what Andrew Sihler says in his New Comparative Grammar of Greek and Latin:
Abl.sg. L. mē, tē, sē, are from OL mēd, tēd, sēd, with the same
ablative -d as in nouns and other pronouns. Cf. Ved. mát, tvát, ...
whose short vowels, being unexpected, are likely to be faithful to the
original state of affairs. The significance of the long vowels in L.
is ambiguous; they may be from lengthening in monosyllables, but are
more likely to be importations from the otherwise ubiquitous long
vowels in the abl. ending of various noun classes.
answered Apr 3 at 1:55
varrovarro
3,9551316
What does the abbreviationVed.in that quote mean?
– Wilson
Apr 3 at 8:50
@Wilson..... Vedic
– fdb
Apr 3 at 9:18
I'm not sure this really answers the question; the quote from Sihler states that the e was long, but it doesn't say how we know this.
– TKR
Apr 4 at 4:35
add a comment |
This is what Andrew Sihler says in his New Comparative Grammar of Greek and Latin:
Abl.sg. L. mē, tē, sē, are from OL mēd, tēd, sēd, with the same
ablative -d as in nouns and other pronouns. Cf. Ved. mát, tvát, ...
whose short vowels, being unexpected, are likely to be faithful to the
original state of affairs. The significance of the long vowels in L.
is ambiguous; they may be from lengthening in monosyllables, but are
more likely to be importations from the otherwise ubiquitous long
vowels in the abl. ending of various noun classes.
answered Apr 3 at 1:55
varrovarro
3,9551316
This is what Andrew Sihler says in his New Comparative Grammar of Greek and Latin:
Abl.sg. L. mē, tē, sē, are from OL mēd, tēd, sēd, with the same
ablative -d as in nouns and other pronouns. Cf. Ved. mát, tvát, ...
whose short vowels, being unexpected, are likely to be faithful to the
original state of affairs. The significance of the long vowels in L.
is ambiguous; they may be from lengthening in monosyllables, but are
more likely to be importations from the otherwise ubiquitous long
vowels in the abl. ending of various noun classes.
answered Apr 3 at 1:55
varrovarro
3,9551316
edited Apr 3 at 2:02
answered Apr 3 at 1:55
varrovarro
3,9551316
answered Apr 3 at 1:55
varrovarro
3,9551316
answered Apr 3 at 1:55
varrovarro
3,9551316
3,9551316
What does the abbreviationVed.in that quote mean?
– Wilson
Apr 3 at 8:50
@Wilson..... Vedic
– fdb
Apr 3 at 9:18
I'm not sure this really answers the question; the quote from Sihler states that the e was long, but it doesn't say how we know this.
– TKR
Apr 4 at 4:35
add a comment |
What does the abbreviationVed.in that quote mean?
– Wilson
Apr 3 at 8:50
@Wilson..... Vedic
– fdb
Apr 3 at 9:18
I'm not sure this really answers the question; the quote from Sihler states that the e was long, but it doesn't say how we know this.
– TKR
Apr 4 at 4:35
What does the abbreviation
Ved. in that quote mean?– Wilson
Apr 3 at 8:50
What does the abbreviation
Ved. in that quote mean?– Wilson
Apr 3 at 8:50
@Wilson..... Vedic
– fdb
Apr 3 at 9:18
@Wilson..... Vedic
– fdb
Apr 3 at 9:18
I'm not sure this really answers the question; the quote from Sihler states that the e was long, but it doesn't say how we know this.
– TKR
Apr 4 at 4:35
I'm not sure this really answers the question; the quote from Sihler states that the e was long, but it doesn't say how we know this.
– TKR
Apr 4 at 4:35
add a comment |
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