Is there a measurement for the vocal speed of a song?How should I control my voice while rapping?What is Tempo (Speed): Moderate 4What is the term for a song without a tempo?How to calculate the tempo of a song in numbers and find the Italian terms?Is there a tradeoff between vocal flexibility and safety?What is the vocal technique for Adrien's (Northlane) Low Scream?How to turn a vocal song into sheet musicWhat is the term for multiple simultaneous vocal lines?How long does a sound take that corresponds to a note at a certain tempo? What notations / conventions do influence it in detail?Converting Vocal Line into Guitar - Speed, Dynamics

How do I gain back my faith in my PhD degree?

Why are electrically insulating heatsinks so rare? Is it just cost?

Question relative to pads for capacitors - high frequency

Do I have a twin with permutated remainders?

Why do I get two different answers for this counting problem?

How is it possible to have an ability score that is less than 3?

What's that red-plus icon near a text?

Why is 150k or 200k jobs considered good when there's 300k+ births a month?

Doing something right before you need it - expression for this?

Languages that we cannot (dis)prove to be Context-Free

Filter any system log file by date or date range

Maximum likelihood parameters deviate from posterior distributions

Decision tree nodes overlapping with Tikz

How much RAM could one put in a typical 80386 setup?

Does detail obscure or enhance action?

List<T>.RemoveAll() efficiency / compiler optimisation

Accidentally leaked the solution to an assignment, what to do now? (I'm the prof)

Question on branch cuts and branch points

expand `ifthenelse` immediately

Today is the Center

When a company launches a new product do they "come out" with a new product or do they "come up" with a new product?

Can I make popcorn with any corn?

Theorems that impeded progress

Is it possible to run Internet Explorer on OS X El Capitan?



Is there a measurement for the vocal speed of a song?


How should I control my voice while rapping?What is Tempo (Speed): Moderate 4What is the term for a song without a tempo?How to calculate the tempo of a song in numbers and find the Italian terms?Is there a tradeoff between vocal flexibility and safety?What is the vocal technique for Adrien's (Northlane) Low Scream?How to turn a vocal song into sheet musicWhat is the term for multiple simultaneous vocal lines?How long does a sound take that corresponds to a note at a certain tempo? What notations / conventions do influence it in detail?Converting Vocal Line into Guitar - Speed, Dynamics













1















I'm trying to find a way to measure the speed of a song from the perspective of singing/rapping. So far all I can find is BPM (beats per minute), however there are at least 2 issues with that:



  • The BPM number depends on which beats are counted, quite often a website will report twice the BPM that I measure by myself.

  • The BPM is not always related to the vocal speed. For example, "Thoughts Of A Dying Atheist" by Muse has 179 BPM but the singing part is quite slow, while "Break Ya Neck" by Busta Rhymes has only 83 BPM, but a... neck-breaking rapping speed.

Is there a more accurate measurement for the vocal speed? I'm thinking something along the lines of (continuous) syllables per minute, excluding the instrumental parts.










share|improve this question

















  • 1





    part 1) perhaps you are miscounting beats. part 2) vocal speed does not have bpm

    – Doktor Mayhem
    Mar 26 at 16:29






  • 2





    @DoktorMayhem 1) perhaps I am, perhaps the person who published the number on the website is; 2) that's my point, how to measure it?

    – aditsu
    Mar 26 at 16:31











  • By the way, sometimes different websites show different numbers for the same song (usually one is double the other, but not always)

    – aditsu
    Mar 26 at 16:32











  • Syllables/second? Words/min? Notes/second?

    – user45266
    Mar 26 at 17:13











  • There's probably a similar term for generic music note rates. Notes/second, perhaps? Liszt's Transcendental Etude No. 6 in G Minor ("Vision") has a slow tempo (bpm) but loads of ornamentation and therefore a deceptively high note rate....

    – Dekkadeci
    Mar 27 at 5:25
















1















I'm trying to find a way to measure the speed of a song from the perspective of singing/rapping. So far all I can find is BPM (beats per minute), however there are at least 2 issues with that:



  • The BPM number depends on which beats are counted, quite often a website will report twice the BPM that I measure by myself.

  • The BPM is not always related to the vocal speed. For example, "Thoughts Of A Dying Atheist" by Muse has 179 BPM but the singing part is quite slow, while "Break Ya Neck" by Busta Rhymes has only 83 BPM, but a... neck-breaking rapping speed.

Is there a more accurate measurement for the vocal speed? I'm thinking something along the lines of (continuous) syllables per minute, excluding the instrumental parts.










share|improve this question

















  • 1





    part 1) perhaps you are miscounting beats. part 2) vocal speed does not have bpm

    – Doktor Mayhem
    Mar 26 at 16:29






  • 2





    @DoktorMayhem 1) perhaps I am, perhaps the person who published the number on the website is; 2) that's my point, how to measure it?

    – aditsu
    Mar 26 at 16:31











  • By the way, sometimes different websites show different numbers for the same song (usually one is double the other, but not always)

    – aditsu
    Mar 26 at 16:32











  • Syllables/second? Words/min? Notes/second?

    – user45266
    Mar 26 at 17:13











  • There's probably a similar term for generic music note rates. Notes/second, perhaps? Liszt's Transcendental Etude No. 6 in G Minor ("Vision") has a slow tempo (bpm) but loads of ornamentation and therefore a deceptively high note rate....

    – Dekkadeci
    Mar 27 at 5:25














1












1








1








I'm trying to find a way to measure the speed of a song from the perspective of singing/rapping. So far all I can find is BPM (beats per minute), however there are at least 2 issues with that:



  • The BPM number depends on which beats are counted, quite often a website will report twice the BPM that I measure by myself.

  • The BPM is not always related to the vocal speed. For example, "Thoughts Of A Dying Atheist" by Muse has 179 BPM but the singing part is quite slow, while "Break Ya Neck" by Busta Rhymes has only 83 BPM, but a... neck-breaking rapping speed.

Is there a more accurate measurement for the vocal speed? I'm thinking something along the lines of (continuous) syllables per minute, excluding the instrumental parts.










share|improve this question














I'm trying to find a way to measure the speed of a song from the perspective of singing/rapping. So far all I can find is BPM (beats per minute), however there are at least 2 issues with that:



  • The BPM number depends on which beats are counted, quite often a website will report twice the BPM that I measure by myself.

  • The BPM is not always related to the vocal speed. For example, "Thoughts Of A Dying Atheist" by Muse has 179 BPM but the singing part is quite slow, while "Break Ya Neck" by Busta Rhymes has only 83 BPM, but a... neck-breaking rapping speed.

Is there a more accurate measurement for the vocal speed? I'm thinking something along the lines of (continuous) syllables per minute, excluding the instrumental parts.







voice tempo






share|improve this question













share|improve this question











share|improve this question




share|improve this question










asked Mar 26 at 16:25









aditsuaditsu

1123




1123







  • 1





    part 1) perhaps you are miscounting beats. part 2) vocal speed does not have bpm

    – Doktor Mayhem
    Mar 26 at 16:29






  • 2





    @DoktorMayhem 1) perhaps I am, perhaps the person who published the number on the website is; 2) that's my point, how to measure it?

    – aditsu
    Mar 26 at 16:31











  • By the way, sometimes different websites show different numbers for the same song (usually one is double the other, but not always)

    – aditsu
    Mar 26 at 16:32











  • Syllables/second? Words/min? Notes/second?

    – user45266
    Mar 26 at 17:13











  • There's probably a similar term for generic music note rates. Notes/second, perhaps? Liszt's Transcendental Etude No. 6 in G Minor ("Vision") has a slow tempo (bpm) but loads of ornamentation and therefore a deceptively high note rate....

    – Dekkadeci
    Mar 27 at 5:25













  • 1





    part 1) perhaps you are miscounting beats. part 2) vocal speed does not have bpm

    – Doktor Mayhem
    Mar 26 at 16:29






  • 2





    @DoktorMayhem 1) perhaps I am, perhaps the person who published the number on the website is; 2) that's my point, how to measure it?

    – aditsu
    Mar 26 at 16:31











  • By the way, sometimes different websites show different numbers for the same song (usually one is double the other, but not always)

    – aditsu
    Mar 26 at 16:32











  • Syllables/second? Words/min? Notes/second?

    – user45266
    Mar 26 at 17:13











  • There's probably a similar term for generic music note rates. Notes/second, perhaps? Liszt's Transcendental Etude No. 6 in G Minor ("Vision") has a slow tempo (bpm) but loads of ornamentation and therefore a deceptively high note rate....

    – Dekkadeci
    Mar 27 at 5:25








1




1





part 1) perhaps you are miscounting beats. part 2) vocal speed does not have bpm

– Doktor Mayhem
Mar 26 at 16:29





part 1) perhaps you are miscounting beats. part 2) vocal speed does not have bpm

– Doktor Mayhem
Mar 26 at 16:29




2




2





@DoktorMayhem 1) perhaps I am, perhaps the person who published the number on the website is; 2) that's my point, how to measure it?

– aditsu
Mar 26 at 16:31





@DoktorMayhem 1) perhaps I am, perhaps the person who published the number on the website is; 2) that's my point, how to measure it?

– aditsu
Mar 26 at 16:31













By the way, sometimes different websites show different numbers for the same song (usually one is double the other, but not always)

– aditsu
Mar 26 at 16:32





By the way, sometimes different websites show different numbers for the same song (usually one is double the other, but not always)

– aditsu
Mar 26 at 16:32













Syllables/second? Words/min? Notes/second?

– user45266
Mar 26 at 17:13





Syllables/second? Words/min? Notes/second?

– user45266
Mar 26 at 17:13













There's probably a similar term for generic music note rates. Notes/second, perhaps? Liszt's Transcendental Etude No. 6 in G Minor ("Vision") has a slow tempo (bpm) but loads of ornamentation and therefore a deceptively high note rate....

– Dekkadeci
Mar 27 at 5:25






There's probably a similar term for generic music note rates. Notes/second, perhaps? Liszt's Transcendental Etude No. 6 in G Minor ("Vision") has a slow tempo (bpm) but loads of ornamentation and therefore a deceptively high note rate....

– Dekkadeci
Mar 27 at 5:25











3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes


















5














There is the concept (not specific to music) of Speech Tempo. As you will see from the article, there is some degree of discussion about how this should be measured - for example, words per minute, syllables per second, or sounds per second. One could imagine even deeper levels of granularity - such as the inclusion of changes in pitch or timbre as sound 'features'.



Within rap music, it's common to measure rap performances in terms of syllables per second - such performances have been noted in the Guinness book of Records.






share|improve this answer


















  • 1





    Interesting, it's hard to decide how to split things up, and the wide variety of singing styles makes that even trickier. I'm thinking about the ending of "Don't Cry" by Guns N' Roses for example, first the "Don't you ever cry-y-yy-i-i" then the famous endless "toniiiiiii...."

    – aditsu
    Mar 26 at 23:07






  • 1





    I think syllables per second (or minute) can be a good reference though, for most songs. I wish it was more common to measure that too, not just the BPM.

    – aditsu
    Mar 26 at 23:14






  • 1





    @DavidBowling I think we have very different scenarios in mind. You're probably thinking of a situation where you have the full sheet music for a song, and a metronome, and you're just figuring out how fast you need to sing. I'm thinking about a case where you are asked to pick any song that you'd like to sing, but it has to be reasonably fast. First of all, how fast is "fast"? There needs to be some kind of measurement. You pick a song that is reported to have over 140 bpm, but it gets rejected because the vocal part is too slow. Now what?

    – aditsu
    Mar 26 at 23:56






  • 1





    @DavidBowling BPM is useful both as a direction ("how fast do I play this?") and a metric ("I want something at such-and-such a tempo"). Something like Speech Tempo isn't so useful as a direction, but, in a world where it was measured, could nevertheless be useful as a metric to find pieces that fit a certain profile (without having to listen to them!)

    – topo morto
    Mar 27 at 0:27






  • 1





    @DavidBowling yes, BPM + "predominant subdivision" would be along the right lines. My initial thought is that I don't hear "predominant subdivision" mentioned as an analytical metric anywhere near as much as time signature or BPM / tempo indication, which may be why the OP is on a quest...

    – topo morto
    Mar 27 at 0:51



















3














I humbly propose "maximum notes/second": Take the fastest part of the song and calculate the number of notes in that amount of time. If you have a passage that is super-fast in one part but really slow in another, it's way more important to know that you need to be able to rap/sing/play at that fastest part's speed to play the whole song. Compare the chorus of Eminem's "Rap God" to the fast part. Obviously, to tackle that song, one needs to be able to rap as fast as the fastest part, not just the average of the whole song.



Clearly, one would have to experiment with certain parameters, such as minimum measured time, and even definition of a note (slides? bends?) in order to get useful results.



Disclaimer: No one uses this, because I made it up. I think it's way more useful than average notes/second.






share|improve this answer

























  • That's a good point, and could make it easier to measure. I think the average is also relevant, and the fastest part should probably have a minimum length (e.g. at least 5 seconds).

    – aditsu
    Mar 26 at 22:39











  • @aditsu Right, otherwise one-note passages approach infinite speed...

    – user45266
    Mar 27 at 3:56











  • I wasn't thinking about single notes, but rather quick "bursts" that may last 1-2 seconds and are not representative of the whole song.

    – aditsu
    Mar 29 at 7:49











  • @aditsu but that's my point. To play the song, you need to be as fast as the bursts!

    – user45266
    Mar 29 at 14:51











  • Well, if the fast part in "Rap God" was only 1 second long, I think almost anybody could do it. What makes it really hard is that it keeps going for about 15 sec.

    – aditsu
    Mar 29 at 16:35


















1














I don't think there's a useful single value that you can use to summarise a song like this. Instead, it's probably most useful to consider a combination of the BPM, the length of rhythmic subdivisions, and distribution of rhythms. For example, Break Ya Neck has a BPM of 166*, and semiquaver/quaver (16th note/8th note) rhythms sustained over the period of several bars. In comparison Thoughts Of A Dying Atheist is 179 BPM but the rhythms are mainly a mixture of crotchets (quarter notes) and longer notes, with no consecutive passages of 8th notes.



*I know you said 83 in your question but I think 166 is more accurate. When/why BPM values can vary by a factor of two would be a good topic for another question!






share|improve this answer























  • Funny, I actually looked it up, and multiple sources said 83, and my own count also confirmed that. But I also see how it can be counted as 166. Anyway, I hope you get my main point: some songs have lower BPM but faster lyrics/vocals.

    – aditsu
    Mar 26 at 23:25











  • I'm not sure if "a combination of the BPM, the length of rhythmic subdivisions, and distribution of rhythms" is really practical. It may be accurate, but difficult to interpret as a meaningful measure of speed (for many people). E.g. a 5/16 note at 80bpm is longer than a 3/8 note at 120bpm, but it's hard to tell without a calculator.

    – aditsu
    Mar 26 at 23:40











  • @aditsu Maybe, but if you try something simpler I don't think it will capture what you want. However, also note that 5/16th notes aren't really a thing. Usually you would talk about 1/4, 1/8, 1/16 notes and their triplet variations in which case it is quite easy to compare songs since you can double BPM and note length to keep the actual rhythm the same.

    – rlms
    Mar 27 at 17:58











  • I think something simpler could work better and would be easier to use, but your suggestion is also valid. 5/16th is a quarter note tied to a 16th note, as shown for example at en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tie_(music) , but I agree that it would seldom come up. Some songs are a bit harder to analyze though (without the sheet music), e.g. "Hoy" by Gloria Estefan.

    – aditsu
    Mar 29 at 7:22











  • I think that song is about 195 BPM with a mixture of 1/4 and 1/8 notes in the vocal line.

    – rlms
    Mar 29 at 11:34











Your Answer








StackExchange.ready(function()
var channelOptions =
tags: "".split(" "),
id: "240"
;
initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function()
// Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled)
StackExchange.using("snippets", function()
createEditor();
);

else
createEditor();

);

function createEditor()
StackExchange.prepareEditor(
heartbeatType: 'answer',
autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
convertImagesToLinks: false,
noModals: true,
showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
reputationToPostImages: null,
bindNavPrevention: true,
postfix: "",
imageUploader:
brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
allowUrls: true
,
noCode: true, onDemand: true,
discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
);



);













draft saved

draft discarded


















StackExchange.ready(
function ()
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmusic.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f81981%2fis-there-a-measurement-for-the-vocal-speed-of-a-song%23new-answer', 'question_page');

);

Post as a guest















Required, but never shown

























3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes








3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes









active

oldest

votes






active

oldest

votes









5














There is the concept (not specific to music) of Speech Tempo. As you will see from the article, there is some degree of discussion about how this should be measured - for example, words per minute, syllables per second, or sounds per second. One could imagine even deeper levels of granularity - such as the inclusion of changes in pitch or timbre as sound 'features'.



Within rap music, it's common to measure rap performances in terms of syllables per second - such performances have been noted in the Guinness book of Records.






share|improve this answer


















  • 1





    Interesting, it's hard to decide how to split things up, and the wide variety of singing styles makes that even trickier. I'm thinking about the ending of "Don't Cry" by Guns N' Roses for example, first the "Don't you ever cry-y-yy-i-i" then the famous endless "toniiiiiii...."

    – aditsu
    Mar 26 at 23:07






  • 1





    I think syllables per second (or minute) can be a good reference though, for most songs. I wish it was more common to measure that too, not just the BPM.

    – aditsu
    Mar 26 at 23:14






  • 1





    @DavidBowling I think we have very different scenarios in mind. You're probably thinking of a situation where you have the full sheet music for a song, and a metronome, and you're just figuring out how fast you need to sing. I'm thinking about a case where you are asked to pick any song that you'd like to sing, but it has to be reasonably fast. First of all, how fast is "fast"? There needs to be some kind of measurement. You pick a song that is reported to have over 140 bpm, but it gets rejected because the vocal part is too slow. Now what?

    – aditsu
    Mar 26 at 23:56






  • 1





    @DavidBowling BPM is useful both as a direction ("how fast do I play this?") and a metric ("I want something at such-and-such a tempo"). Something like Speech Tempo isn't so useful as a direction, but, in a world where it was measured, could nevertheless be useful as a metric to find pieces that fit a certain profile (without having to listen to them!)

    – topo morto
    Mar 27 at 0:27






  • 1





    @DavidBowling yes, BPM + "predominant subdivision" would be along the right lines. My initial thought is that I don't hear "predominant subdivision" mentioned as an analytical metric anywhere near as much as time signature or BPM / tempo indication, which may be why the OP is on a quest...

    – topo morto
    Mar 27 at 0:51
















5














There is the concept (not specific to music) of Speech Tempo. As you will see from the article, there is some degree of discussion about how this should be measured - for example, words per minute, syllables per second, or sounds per second. One could imagine even deeper levels of granularity - such as the inclusion of changes in pitch or timbre as sound 'features'.



Within rap music, it's common to measure rap performances in terms of syllables per second - such performances have been noted in the Guinness book of Records.






share|improve this answer


















  • 1





    Interesting, it's hard to decide how to split things up, and the wide variety of singing styles makes that even trickier. I'm thinking about the ending of "Don't Cry" by Guns N' Roses for example, first the "Don't you ever cry-y-yy-i-i" then the famous endless "toniiiiiii...."

    – aditsu
    Mar 26 at 23:07






  • 1





    I think syllables per second (or minute) can be a good reference though, for most songs. I wish it was more common to measure that too, not just the BPM.

    – aditsu
    Mar 26 at 23:14






  • 1





    @DavidBowling I think we have very different scenarios in mind. You're probably thinking of a situation where you have the full sheet music for a song, and a metronome, and you're just figuring out how fast you need to sing. I'm thinking about a case where you are asked to pick any song that you'd like to sing, but it has to be reasonably fast. First of all, how fast is "fast"? There needs to be some kind of measurement. You pick a song that is reported to have over 140 bpm, but it gets rejected because the vocal part is too slow. Now what?

    – aditsu
    Mar 26 at 23:56






  • 1





    @DavidBowling BPM is useful both as a direction ("how fast do I play this?") and a metric ("I want something at such-and-such a tempo"). Something like Speech Tempo isn't so useful as a direction, but, in a world where it was measured, could nevertheless be useful as a metric to find pieces that fit a certain profile (without having to listen to them!)

    – topo morto
    Mar 27 at 0:27






  • 1





    @DavidBowling yes, BPM + "predominant subdivision" would be along the right lines. My initial thought is that I don't hear "predominant subdivision" mentioned as an analytical metric anywhere near as much as time signature or BPM / tempo indication, which may be why the OP is on a quest...

    – topo morto
    Mar 27 at 0:51














5












5








5







There is the concept (not specific to music) of Speech Tempo. As you will see from the article, there is some degree of discussion about how this should be measured - for example, words per minute, syllables per second, or sounds per second. One could imagine even deeper levels of granularity - such as the inclusion of changes in pitch or timbre as sound 'features'.



Within rap music, it's common to measure rap performances in terms of syllables per second - such performances have been noted in the Guinness book of Records.






share|improve this answer













There is the concept (not specific to music) of Speech Tempo. As you will see from the article, there is some degree of discussion about how this should be measured - for example, words per minute, syllables per second, or sounds per second. One could imagine even deeper levels of granularity - such as the inclusion of changes in pitch or timbre as sound 'features'.



Within rap music, it's common to measure rap performances in terms of syllables per second - such performances have been noted in the Guinness book of Records.







share|improve this answer












share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer










answered Mar 26 at 17:01









topo mortotopo morto

27.1k246108




27.1k246108







  • 1





    Interesting, it's hard to decide how to split things up, and the wide variety of singing styles makes that even trickier. I'm thinking about the ending of "Don't Cry" by Guns N' Roses for example, first the "Don't you ever cry-y-yy-i-i" then the famous endless "toniiiiiii...."

    – aditsu
    Mar 26 at 23:07






  • 1





    I think syllables per second (or minute) can be a good reference though, for most songs. I wish it was more common to measure that too, not just the BPM.

    – aditsu
    Mar 26 at 23:14






  • 1





    @DavidBowling I think we have very different scenarios in mind. You're probably thinking of a situation where you have the full sheet music for a song, and a metronome, and you're just figuring out how fast you need to sing. I'm thinking about a case where you are asked to pick any song that you'd like to sing, but it has to be reasonably fast. First of all, how fast is "fast"? There needs to be some kind of measurement. You pick a song that is reported to have over 140 bpm, but it gets rejected because the vocal part is too slow. Now what?

    – aditsu
    Mar 26 at 23:56






  • 1





    @DavidBowling BPM is useful both as a direction ("how fast do I play this?") and a metric ("I want something at such-and-such a tempo"). Something like Speech Tempo isn't so useful as a direction, but, in a world where it was measured, could nevertheless be useful as a metric to find pieces that fit a certain profile (without having to listen to them!)

    – topo morto
    Mar 27 at 0:27






  • 1





    @DavidBowling yes, BPM + "predominant subdivision" would be along the right lines. My initial thought is that I don't hear "predominant subdivision" mentioned as an analytical metric anywhere near as much as time signature or BPM / tempo indication, which may be why the OP is on a quest...

    – topo morto
    Mar 27 at 0:51













  • 1





    Interesting, it's hard to decide how to split things up, and the wide variety of singing styles makes that even trickier. I'm thinking about the ending of "Don't Cry" by Guns N' Roses for example, first the "Don't you ever cry-y-yy-i-i" then the famous endless "toniiiiiii...."

    – aditsu
    Mar 26 at 23:07






  • 1





    I think syllables per second (or minute) can be a good reference though, for most songs. I wish it was more common to measure that too, not just the BPM.

    – aditsu
    Mar 26 at 23:14






  • 1





    @DavidBowling I think we have very different scenarios in mind. You're probably thinking of a situation where you have the full sheet music for a song, and a metronome, and you're just figuring out how fast you need to sing. I'm thinking about a case where you are asked to pick any song that you'd like to sing, but it has to be reasonably fast. First of all, how fast is "fast"? There needs to be some kind of measurement. You pick a song that is reported to have over 140 bpm, but it gets rejected because the vocal part is too slow. Now what?

    – aditsu
    Mar 26 at 23:56






  • 1





    @DavidBowling BPM is useful both as a direction ("how fast do I play this?") and a metric ("I want something at such-and-such a tempo"). Something like Speech Tempo isn't so useful as a direction, but, in a world where it was measured, could nevertheless be useful as a metric to find pieces that fit a certain profile (without having to listen to them!)

    – topo morto
    Mar 27 at 0:27






  • 1





    @DavidBowling yes, BPM + "predominant subdivision" would be along the right lines. My initial thought is that I don't hear "predominant subdivision" mentioned as an analytical metric anywhere near as much as time signature or BPM / tempo indication, which may be why the OP is on a quest...

    – topo morto
    Mar 27 at 0:51








1




1





Interesting, it's hard to decide how to split things up, and the wide variety of singing styles makes that even trickier. I'm thinking about the ending of "Don't Cry" by Guns N' Roses for example, first the "Don't you ever cry-y-yy-i-i" then the famous endless "toniiiiiii...."

– aditsu
Mar 26 at 23:07





Interesting, it's hard to decide how to split things up, and the wide variety of singing styles makes that even trickier. I'm thinking about the ending of "Don't Cry" by Guns N' Roses for example, first the "Don't you ever cry-y-yy-i-i" then the famous endless "toniiiiiii...."

– aditsu
Mar 26 at 23:07




1




1





I think syllables per second (or minute) can be a good reference though, for most songs. I wish it was more common to measure that too, not just the BPM.

– aditsu
Mar 26 at 23:14





I think syllables per second (or minute) can be a good reference though, for most songs. I wish it was more common to measure that too, not just the BPM.

– aditsu
Mar 26 at 23:14




1




1





@DavidBowling I think we have very different scenarios in mind. You're probably thinking of a situation where you have the full sheet music for a song, and a metronome, and you're just figuring out how fast you need to sing. I'm thinking about a case where you are asked to pick any song that you'd like to sing, but it has to be reasonably fast. First of all, how fast is "fast"? There needs to be some kind of measurement. You pick a song that is reported to have over 140 bpm, but it gets rejected because the vocal part is too slow. Now what?

– aditsu
Mar 26 at 23:56





@DavidBowling I think we have very different scenarios in mind. You're probably thinking of a situation where you have the full sheet music for a song, and a metronome, and you're just figuring out how fast you need to sing. I'm thinking about a case where you are asked to pick any song that you'd like to sing, but it has to be reasonably fast. First of all, how fast is "fast"? There needs to be some kind of measurement. You pick a song that is reported to have over 140 bpm, but it gets rejected because the vocal part is too slow. Now what?

– aditsu
Mar 26 at 23:56




1




1





@DavidBowling BPM is useful both as a direction ("how fast do I play this?") and a metric ("I want something at such-and-such a tempo"). Something like Speech Tempo isn't so useful as a direction, but, in a world where it was measured, could nevertheless be useful as a metric to find pieces that fit a certain profile (without having to listen to them!)

– topo morto
Mar 27 at 0:27





@DavidBowling BPM is useful both as a direction ("how fast do I play this?") and a metric ("I want something at such-and-such a tempo"). Something like Speech Tempo isn't so useful as a direction, but, in a world where it was measured, could nevertheless be useful as a metric to find pieces that fit a certain profile (without having to listen to them!)

– topo morto
Mar 27 at 0:27




1




1





@DavidBowling yes, BPM + "predominant subdivision" would be along the right lines. My initial thought is that I don't hear "predominant subdivision" mentioned as an analytical metric anywhere near as much as time signature or BPM / tempo indication, which may be why the OP is on a quest...

– topo morto
Mar 27 at 0:51






@DavidBowling yes, BPM + "predominant subdivision" would be along the right lines. My initial thought is that I don't hear "predominant subdivision" mentioned as an analytical metric anywhere near as much as time signature or BPM / tempo indication, which may be why the OP is on a quest...

– topo morto
Mar 27 at 0:51












3














I humbly propose "maximum notes/second": Take the fastest part of the song and calculate the number of notes in that amount of time. If you have a passage that is super-fast in one part but really slow in another, it's way more important to know that you need to be able to rap/sing/play at that fastest part's speed to play the whole song. Compare the chorus of Eminem's "Rap God" to the fast part. Obviously, to tackle that song, one needs to be able to rap as fast as the fastest part, not just the average of the whole song.



Clearly, one would have to experiment with certain parameters, such as minimum measured time, and even definition of a note (slides? bends?) in order to get useful results.



Disclaimer: No one uses this, because I made it up. I think it's way more useful than average notes/second.






share|improve this answer

























  • That's a good point, and could make it easier to measure. I think the average is also relevant, and the fastest part should probably have a minimum length (e.g. at least 5 seconds).

    – aditsu
    Mar 26 at 22:39











  • @aditsu Right, otherwise one-note passages approach infinite speed...

    – user45266
    Mar 27 at 3:56











  • I wasn't thinking about single notes, but rather quick "bursts" that may last 1-2 seconds and are not representative of the whole song.

    – aditsu
    Mar 29 at 7:49











  • @aditsu but that's my point. To play the song, you need to be as fast as the bursts!

    – user45266
    Mar 29 at 14:51











  • Well, if the fast part in "Rap God" was only 1 second long, I think almost anybody could do it. What makes it really hard is that it keeps going for about 15 sec.

    – aditsu
    Mar 29 at 16:35















3














I humbly propose "maximum notes/second": Take the fastest part of the song and calculate the number of notes in that amount of time. If you have a passage that is super-fast in one part but really slow in another, it's way more important to know that you need to be able to rap/sing/play at that fastest part's speed to play the whole song. Compare the chorus of Eminem's "Rap God" to the fast part. Obviously, to tackle that song, one needs to be able to rap as fast as the fastest part, not just the average of the whole song.



Clearly, one would have to experiment with certain parameters, such as minimum measured time, and even definition of a note (slides? bends?) in order to get useful results.



Disclaimer: No one uses this, because I made it up. I think it's way more useful than average notes/second.






share|improve this answer

























  • That's a good point, and could make it easier to measure. I think the average is also relevant, and the fastest part should probably have a minimum length (e.g. at least 5 seconds).

    – aditsu
    Mar 26 at 22:39











  • @aditsu Right, otherwise one-note passages approach infinite speed...

    – user45266
    Mar 27 at 3:56











  • I wasn't thinking about single notes, but rather quick "bursts" that may last 1-2 seconds and are not representative of the whole song.

    – aditsu
    Mar 29 at 7:49











  • @aditsu but that's my point. To play the song, you need to be as fast as the bursts!

    – user45266
    Mar 29 at 14:51











  • Well, if the fast part in "Rap God" was only 1 second long, I think almost anybody could do it. What makes it really hard is that it keeps going for about 15 sec.

    – aditsu
    Mar 29 at 16:35













3












3








3







I humbly propose "maximum notes/second": Take the fastest part of the song and calculate the number of notes in that amount of time. If you have a passage that is super-fast in one part but really slow in another, it's way more important to know that you need to be able to rap/sing/play at that fastest part's speed to play the whole song. Compare the chorus of Eminem's "Rap God" to the fast part. Obviously, to tackle that song, one needs to be able to rap as fast as the fastest part, not just the average of the whole song.



Clearly, one would have to experiment with certain parameters, such as minimum measured time, and even definition of a note (slides? bends?) in order to get useful results.



Disclaimer: No one uses this, because I made it up. I think it's way more useful than average notes/second.






share|improve this answer















I humbly propose "maximum notes/second": Take the fastest part of the song and calculate the number of notes in that amount of time. If you have a passage that is super-fast in one part but really slow in another, it's way more important to know that you need to be able to rap/sing/play at that fastest part's speed to play the whole song. Compare the chorus of Eminem's "Rap God" to the fast part. Obviously, to tackle that song, one needs to be able to rap as fast as the fastest part, not just the average of the whole song.



Clearly, one would have to experiment with certain parameters, such as minimum measured time, and even definition of a note (slides? bends?) in order to get useful results.



Disclaimer: No one uses this, because I made it up. I think it's way more useful than average notes/second.







share|improve this answer














share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer








edited Mar 27 at 3:58

























answered Mar 26 at 17:30









user45266user45266

3,8551734




3,8551734












  • That's a good point, and could make it easier to measure. I think the average is also relevant, and the fastest part should probably have a minimum length (e.g. at least 5 seconds).

    – aditsu
    Mar 26 at 22:39











  • @aditsu Right, otherwise one-note passages approach infinite speed...

    – user45266
    Mar 27 at 3:56











  • I wasn't thinking about single notes, but rather quick "bursts" that may last 1-2 seconds and are not representative of the whole song.

    – aditsu
    Mar 29 at 7:49











  • @aditsu but that's my point. To play the song, you need to be as fast as the bursts!

    – user45266
    Mar 29 at 14:51











  • Well, if the fast part in "Rap God" was only 1 second long, I think almost anybody could do it. What makes it really hard is that it keeps going for about 15 sec.

    – aditsu
    Mar 29 at 16:35

















  • That's a good point, and could make it easier to measure. I think the average is also relevant, and the fastest part should probably have a minimum length (e.g. at least 5 seconds).

    – aditsu
    Mar 26 at 22:39











  • @aditsu Right, otherwise one-note passages approach infinite speed...

    – user45266
    Mar 27 at 3:56











  • I wasn't thinking about single notes, but rather quick "bursts" that may last 1-2 seconds and are not representative of the whole song.

    – aditsu
    Mar 29 at 7:49











  • @aditsu but that's my point. To play the song, you need to be as fast as the bursts!

    – user45266
    Mar 29 at 14:51











  • Well, if the fast part in "Rap God" was only 1 second long, I think almost anybody could do it. What makes it really hard is that it keeps going for about 15 sec.

    – aditsu
    Mar 29 at 16:35
















That's a good point, and could make it easier to measure. I think the average is also relevant, and the fastest part should probably have a minimum length (e.g. at least 5 seconds).

– aditsu
Mar 26 at 22:39





That's a good point, and could make it easier to measure. I think the average is also relevant, and the fastest part should probably have a minimum length (e.g. at least 5 seconds).

– aditsu
Mar 26 at 22:39













@aditsu Right, otherwise one-note passages approach infinite speed...

– user45266
Mar 27 at 3:56





@aditsu Right, otherwise one-note passages approach infinite speed...

– user45266
Mar 27 at 3:56













I wasn't thinking about single notes, but rather quick "bursts" that may last 1-2 seconds and are not representative of the whole song.

– aditsu
Mar 29 at 7:49





I wasn't thinking about single notes, but rather quick "bursts" that may last 1-2 seconds and are not representative of the whole song.

– aditsu
Mar 29 at 7:49













@aditsu but that's my point. To play the song, you need to be as fast as the bursts!

– user45266
Mar 29 at 14:51





@aditsu but that's my point. To play the song, you need to be as fast as the bursts!

– user45266
Mar 29 at 14:51













Well, if the fast part in "Rap God" was only 1 second long, I think almost anybody could do it. What makes it really hard is that it keeps going for about 15 sec.

– aditsu
Mar 29 at 16:35





Well, if the fast part in "Rap God" was only 1 second long, I think almost anybody could do it. What makes it really hard is that it keeps going for about 15 sec.

– aditsu
Mar 29 at 16:35











1














I don't think there's a useful single value that you can use to summarise a song like this. Instead, it's probably most useful to consider a combination of the BPM, the length of rhythmic subdivisions, and distribution of rhythms. For example, Break Ya Neck has a BPM of 166*, and semiquaver/quaver (16th note/8th note) rhythms sustained over the period of several bars. In comparison Thoughts Of A Dying Atheist is 179 BPM but the rhythms are mainly a mixture of crotchets (quarter notes) and longer notes, with no consecutive passages of 8th notes.



*I know you said 83 in your question but I think 166 is more accurate. When/why BPM values can vary by a factor of two would be a good topic for another question!






share|improve this answer























  • Funny, I actually looked it up, and multiple sources said 83, and my own count also confirmed that. But I also see how it can be counted as 166. Anyway, I hope you get my main point: some songs have lower BPM but faster lyrics/vocals.

    – aditsu
    Mar 26 at 23:25











  • I'm not sure if "a combination of the BPM, the length of rhythmic subdivisions, and distribution of rhythms" is really practical. It may be accurate, but difficult to interpret as a meaningful measure of speed (for many people). E.g. a 5/16 note at 80bpm is longer than a 3/8 note at 120bpm, but it's hard to tell without a calculator.

    – aditsu
    Mar 26 at 23:40











  • @aditsu Maybe, but if you try something simpler I don't think it will capture what you want. However, also note that 5/16th notes aren't really a thing. Usually you would talk about 1/4, 1/8, 1/16 notes and their triplet variations in which case it is quite easy to compare songs since you can double BPM and note length to keep the actual rhythm the same.

    – rlms
    Mar 27 at 17:58











  • I think something simpler could work better and would be easier to use, but your suggestion is also valid. 5/16th is a quarter note tied to a 16th note, as shown for example at en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tie_(music) , but I agree that it would seldom come up. Some songs are a bit harder to analyze though (without the sheet music), e.g. "Hoy" by Gloria Estefan.

    – aditsu
    Mar 29 at 7:22











  • I think that song is about 195 BPM with a mixture of 1/4 and 1/8 notes in the vocal line.

    – rlms
    Mar 29 at 11:34















1














I don't think there's a useful single value that you can use to summarise a song like this. Instead, it's probably most useful to consider a combination of the BPM, the length of rhythmic subdivisions, and distribution of rhythms. For example, Break Ya Neck has a BPM of 166*, and semiquaver/quaver (16th note/8th note) rhythms sustained over the period of several bars. In comparison Thoughts Of A Dying Atheist is 179 BPM but the rhythms are mainly a mixture of crotchets (quarter notes) and longer notes, with no consecutive passages of 8th notes.



*I know you said 83 in your question but I think 166 is more accurate. When/why BPM values can vary by a factor of two would be a good topic for another question!






share|improve this answer























  • Funny, I actually looked it up, and multiple sources said 83, and my own count also confirmed that. But I also see how it can be counted as 166. Anyway, I hope you get my main point: some songs have lower BPM but faster lyrics/vocals.

    – aditsu
    Mar 26 at 23:25











  • I'm not sure if "a combination of the BPM, the length of rhythmic subdivisions, and distribution of rhythms" is really practical. It may be accurate, but difficult to interpret as a meaningful measure of speed (for many people). E.g. a 5/16 note at 80bpm is longer than a 3/8 note at 120bpm, but it's hard to tell without a calculator.

    – aditsu
    Mar 26 at 23:40











  • @aditsu Maybe, but if you try something simpler I don't think it will capture what you want. However, also note that 5/16th notes aren't really a thing. Usually you would talk about 1/4, 1/8, 1/16 notes and their triplet variations in which case it is quite easy to compare songs since you can double BPM and note length to keep the actual rhythm the same.

    – rlms
    Mar 27 at 17:58











  • I think something simpler could work better and would be easier to use, but your suggestion is also valid. 5/16th is a quarter note tied to a 16th note, as shown for example at en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tie_(music) , but I agree that it would seldom come up. Some songs are a bit harder to analyze though (without the sheet music), e.g. "Hoy" by Gloria Estefan.

    – aditsu
    Mar 29 at 7:22











  • I think that song is about 195 BPM with a mixture of 1/4 and 1/8 notes in the vocal line.

    – rlms
    Mar 29 at 11:34













1












1








1







I don't think there's a useful single value that you can use to summarise a song like this. Instead, it's probably most useful to consider a combination of the BPM, the length of rhythmic subdivisions, and distribution of rhythms. For example, Break Ya Neck has a BPM of 166*, and semiquaver/quaver (16th note/8th note) rhythms sustained over the period of several bars. In comparison Thoughts Of A Dying Atheist is 179 BPM but the rhythms are mainly a mixture of crotchets (quarter notes) and longer notes, with no consecutive passages of 8th notes.



*I know you said 83 in your question but I think 166 is more accurate. When/why BPM values can vary by a factor of two would be a good topic for another question!






share|improve this answer













I don't think there's a useful single value that you can use to summarise a song like this. Instead, it's probably most useful to consider a combination of the BPM, the length of rhythmic subdivisions, and distribution of rhythms. For example, Break Ya Neck has a BPM of 166*, and semiquaver/quaver (16th note/8th note) rhythms sustained over the period of several bars. In comparison Thoughts Of A Dying Atheist is 179 BPM but the rhythms are mainly a mixture of crotchets (quarter notes) and longer notes, with no consecutive passages of 8th notes.



*I know you said 83 in your question but I think 166 is more accurate. When/why BPM values can vary by a factor of two would be a good topic for another question!







share|improve this answer












share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer










answered Mar 26 at 22:26









rlmsrlms

3561315




3561315












  • Funny, I actually looked it up, and multiple sources said 83, and my own count also confirmed that. But I also see how it can be counted as 166. Anyway, I hope you get my main point: some songs have lower BPM but faster lyrics/vocals.

    – aditsu
    Mar 26 at 23:25











  • I'm not sure if "a combination of the BPM, the length of rhythmic subdivisions, and distribution of rhythms" is really practical. It may be accurate, but difficult to interpret as a meaningful measure of speed (for many people). E.g. a 5/16 note at 80bpm is longer than a 3/8 note at 120bpm, but it's hard to tell without a calculator.

    – aditsu
    Mar 26 at 23:40











  • @aditsu Maybe, but if you try something simpler I don't think it will capture what you want. However, also note that 5/16th notes aren't really a thing. Usually you would talk about 1/4, 1/8, 1/16 notes and their triplet variations in which case it is quite easy to compare songs since you can double BPM and note length to keep the actual rhythm the same.

    – rlms
    Mar 27 at 17:58











  • I think something simpler could work better and would be easier to use, but your suggestion is also valid. 5/16th is a quarter note tied to a 16th note, as shown for example at en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tie_(music) , but I agree that it would seldom come up. Some songs are a bit harder to analyze though (without the sheet music), e.g. "Hoy" by Gloria Estefan.

    – aditsu
    Mar 29 at 7:22











  • I think that song is about 195 BPM with a mixture of 1/4 and 1/8 notes in the vocal line.

    – rlms
    Mar 29 at 11:34

















  • Funny, I actually looked it up, and multiple sources said 83, and my own count also confirmed that. But I also see how it can be counted as 166. Anyway, I hope you get my main point: some songs have lower BPM but faster lyrics/vocals.

    – aditsu
    Mar 26 at 23:25











  • I'm not sure if "a combination of the BPM, the length of rhythmic subdivisions, and distribution of rhythms" is really practical. It may be accurate, but difficult to interpret as a meaningful measure of speed (for many people). E.g. a 5/16 note at 80bpm is longer than a 3/8 note at 120bpm, but it's hard to tell without a calculator.

    – aditsu
    Mar 26 at 23:40











  • @aditsu Maybe, but if you try something simpler I don't think it will capture what you want. However, also note that 5/16th notes aren't really a thing. Usually you would talk about 1/4, 1/8, 1/16 notes and their triplet variations in which case it is quite easy to compare songs since you can double BPM and note length to keep the actual rhythm the same.

    – rlms
    Mar 27 at 17:58











  • I think something simpler could work better and would be easier to use, but your suggestion is also valid. 5/16th is a quarter note tied to a 16th note, as shown for example at en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tie_(music) , but I agree that it would seldom come up. Some songs are a bit harder to analyze though (without the sheet music), e.g. "Hoy" by Gloria Estefan.

    – aditsu
    Mar 29 at 7:22











  • I think that song is about 195 BPM with a mixture of 1/4 and 1/8 notes in the vocal line.

    – rlms
    Mar 29 at 11:34
















Funny, I actually looked it up, and multiple sources said 83, and my own count also confirmed that. But I also see how it can be counted as 166. Anyway, I hope you get my main point: some songs have lower BPM but faster lyrics/vocals.

– aditsu
Mar 26 at 23:25





Funny, I actually looked it up, and multiple sources said 83, and my own count also confirmed that. But I also see how it can be counted as 166. Anyway, I hope you get my main point: some songs have lower BPM but faster lyrics/vocals.

– aditsu
Mar 26 at 23:25













I'm not sure if "a combination of the BPM, the length of rhythmic subdivisions, and distribution of rhythms" is really practical. It may be accurate, but difficult to interpret as a meaningful measure of speed (for many people). E.g. a 5/16 note at 80bpm is longer than a 3/8 note at 120bpm, but it's hard to tell without a calculator.

– aditsu
Mar 26 at 23:40





I'm not sure if "a combination of the BPM, the length of rhythmic subdivisions, and distribution of rhythms" is really practical. It may be accurate, but difficult to interpret as a meaningful measure of speed (for many people). E.g. a 5/16 note at 80bpm is longer than a 3/8 note at 120bpm, but it's hard to tell without a calculator.

– aditsu
Mar 26 at 23:40













@aditsu Maybe, but if you try something simpler I don't think it will capture what you want. However, also note that 5/16th notes aren't really a thing. Usually you would talk about 1/4, 1/8, 1/16 notes and their triplet variations in which case it is quite easy to compare songs since you can double BPM and note length to keep the actual rhythm the same.

– rlms
Mar 27 at 17:58





@aditsu Maybe, but if you try something simpler I don't think it will capture what you want. However, also note that 5/16th notes aren't really a thing. Usually you would talk about 1/4, 1/8, 1/16 notes and their triplet variations in which case it is quite easy to compare songs since you can double BPM and note length to keep the actual rhythm the same.

– rlms
Mar 27 at 17:58













I think something simpler could work better and would be easier to use, but your suggestion is also valid. 5/16th is a quarter note tied to a 16th note, as shown for example at en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tie_(music) , but I agree that it would seldom come up. Some songs are a bit harder to analyze though (without the sheet music), e.g. "Hoy" by Gloria Estefan.

– aditsu
Mar 29 at 7:22





I think something simpler could work better and would be easier to use, but your suggestion is also valid. 5/16th is a quarter note tied to a 16th note, as shown for example at en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tie_(music) , but I agree that it would seldom come up. Some songs are a bit harder to analyze though (without the sheet music), e.g. "Hoy" by Gloria Estefan.

– aditsu
Mar 29 at 7:22













I think that song is about 195 BPM with a mixture of 1/4 and 1/8 notes in the vocal line.

– rlms
Mar 29 at 11:34





I think that song is about 195 BPM with a mixture of 1/4 and 1/8 notes in the vocal line.

– rlms
Mar 29 at 11:34

















draft saved

draft discarded
















































Thanks for contributing an answer to Music: Practice & Theory Stack Exchange!


  • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

But avoid


  • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

  • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.

To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




draft saved


draft discarded














StackExchange.ready(
function ()
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmusic.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f81981%2fis-there-a-measurement-for-the-vocal-speed-of-a-song%23new-answer', 'question_page');

);

Post as a guest















Required, but never shown





















































Required, but never shown














Required, but never shown












Required, but never shown







Required, but never shown

































Required, but never shown














Required, but never shown












Required, but never shown







Required, but never shown







Popular posts from this blog

Adding axes to figuresAdding axes labels to LaTeX figuresLaTeX equivalent of ConTeXt buffersRotate a node but not its content: the case of the ellipse decorationHow to define the default vertical distance between nodes?TikZ scaling graphic and adjust node position and keep font sizeNumerical conditional within tikz keys?adding axes to shapesAlign axes across subfiguresAdding figures with a certain orderLine up nested tikz enviroments or how to get rid of themAdding axes labels to LaTeX figures

Tähtien Talli Jäsenet | Lähteet | NavigointivalikkoSuomen Hippos – Tähtien Talli

Do these cracks on my tires look bad? The Next CEO of Stack OverflowDry rot tire should I replace?Having to replace tiresFishtailed so easily? Bad tires? ABS?Filling the tires with something other than air, to avoid puncture hassles?Used Michelin tires safe to install?Do these tyre cracks necessitate replacement?Rumbling noise: tires or mechanicalIs it possible to fix noisy feathered tires?Are bad winter tires still better than summer tires in winter?Torque converter failure - Related to replacing only 2 tires?Why use snow tires on all 4 wheels on 2-wheel-drive cars?