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How is the claim “I am in New York only if I am in America” the same as "If I am in New York, then I am in America?



Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara
Unicorn Meta Zoo #1: Why another podcast?What is the difference between “necessary” and “sufficient”?What are the truth tables for “necessary” and “sufficient”?What is a good argument against “ad populum”?What distinguishes logical necessity, logical consequence, logical truth, and tautology from one another?Connectives, polarity and logical atoms in Linear logicPeirce's law, law of the excluded middle, and intuitionism.Syllogistic Logic: Negation of a Categorical Proposition?Are there exceptions to the principle of the excluded middle?How can you rewrite without any conditionals 'If A then B; A; therefore B' ?Formal Logic: Truth-Value AnalysisCan one think outside of logical rules? If so how?Modus Ponens as Substitute for Syllogism










16















It makes absolutely zero sense to me.



It would make sense if "I am in America" is the antecedent and the consequent is the former.



Even though it wouldn't be sound, it would make logical sense.



I hope someone could explain it in a way someone would to a beginner in logic.



Thanks










share|improve this question



















  • 9





    Already discussed many times on this site; see e.g. what-is-the-difference-between-necessary-and-sufficient as well as what-are-the-truth-tables-for-necessary-and-sufficient

    – Mauro ALLEGRANZA
    Apr 5 at 12:13







  • 17





    Are you perhaps interpreting the word "only" to be qualifying New York? A comma would help to clarify, as would an appropriate pause in the spoken sentence. In other words, do you understand this sentence to be "I am in New York, only if I am in America" or "I am in New York only, if I am in America." If you understood it to be the latter, then I agree that it is illogical. If you understood it to be the former, then hopefully the existing answers have helped you.

    – Richard II
    Apr 5 at 15:09






  • 1





    Technically if you were in New York you might be in a foreign embassy and not in "America"

    – Mark Schultheiss
    Apr 5 at 19:11






  • 1





    @MarkSchultheiss To take your technicality futher, are you still in new york if you are in an embassy? Is yes, then you are also in america (as you are saying the politics are irrelevant). If no, then you are also NOT in america

    – user34150
    Apr 5 at 19:23







  • 5





    The territories of embassies do not belong to the country the embassy represents. It still belongs to the host country. The Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations describes the how and what of embassies; what host countries are required to do, and what they are forbidden to do. But it does not state that the ground the embassy is on has been ceded to the foreign country.

    – Abigail
    Apr 6 at 0:13















16















It makes absolutely zero sense to me.



It would make sense if "I am in America" is the antecedent and the consequent is the former.



Even though it wouldn't be sound, it would make logical sense.



I hope someone could explain it in a way someone would to a beginner in logic.



Thanks










share|improve this question



















  • 9





    Already discussed many times on this site; see e.g. what-is-the-difference-between-necessary-and-sufficient as well as what-are-the-truth-tables-for-necessary-and-sufficient

    – Mauro ALLEGRANZA
    Apr 5 at 12:13







  • 17





    Are you perhaps interpreting the word "only" to be qualifying New York? A comma would help to clarify, as would an appropriate pause in the spoken sentence. In other words, do you understand this sentence to be "I am in New York, only if I am in America" or "I am in New York only, if I am in America." If you understood it to be the latter, then I agree that it is illogical. If you understood it to be the former, then hopefully the existing answers have helped you.

    – Richard II
    Apr 5 at 15:09






  • 1





    Technically if you were in New York you might be in a foreign embassy and not in "America"

    – Mark Schultheiss
    Apr 5 at 19:11






  • 1





    @MarkSchultheiss To take your technicality futher, are you still in new york if you are in an embassy? Is yes, then you are also in america (as you are saying the politics are irrelevant). If no, then you are also NOT in america

    – user34150
    Apr 5 at 19:23







  • 5





    The territories of embassies do not belong to the country the embassy represents. It still belongs to the host country. The Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations describes the how and what of embassies; what host countries are required to do, and what they are forbidden to do. But it does not state that the ground the embassy is on has been ceded to the foreign country.

    – Abigail
    Apr 6 at 0:13













16












16








16


2






It makes absolutely zero sense to me.



It would make sense if "I am in America" is the antecedent and the consequent is the former.



Even though it wouldn't be sound, it would make logical sense.



I hope someone could explain it in a way someone would to a beginner in logic.



Thanks










share|improve this question
















It makes absolutely zero sense to me.



It would make sense if "I am in America" is the antecedent and the consequent is the former.



Even though it wouldn't be sound, it would make logical sense.



I hope someone could explain it in a way someone would to a beginner in logic.



Thanks







logic






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited Apr 5 at 12:50









Frank Hubeny

10.7k51559




10.7k51559










asked Apr 5 at 11:27









MinigameZ moreMinigameZ more

14017




14017







  • 9





    Already discussed many times on this site; see e.g. what-is-the-difference-between-necessary-and-sufficient as well as what-are-the-truth-tables-for-necessary-and-sufficient

    – Mauro ALLEGRANZA
    Apr 5 at 12:13







  • 17





    Are you perhaps interpreting the word "only" to be qualifying New York? A comma would help to clarify, as would an appropriate pause in the spoken sentence. In other words, do you understand this sentence to be "I am in New York, only if I am in America" or "I am in New York only, if I am in America." If you understood it to be the latter, then I agree that it is illogical. If you understood it to be the former, then hopefully the existing answers have helped you.

    – Richard II
    Apr 5 at 15:09






  • 1





    Technically if you were in New York you might be in a foreign embassy and not in "America"

    – Mark Schultheiss
    Apr 5 at 19:11






  • 1





    @MarkSchultheiss To take your technicality futher, are you still in new york if you are in an embassy? Is yes, then you are also in america (as you are saying the politics are irrelevant). If no, then you are also NOT in america

    – user34150
    Apr 5 at 19:23







  • 5





    The territories of embassies do not belong to the country the embassy represents. It still belongs to the host country. The Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations describes the how and what of embassies; what host countries are required to do, and what they are forbidden to do. But it does not state that the ground the embassy is on has been ceded to the foreign country.

    – Abigail
    Apr 6 at 0:13












  • 9





    Already discussed many times on this site; see e.g. what-is-the-difference-between-necessary-and-sufficient as well as what-are-the-truth-tables-for-necessary-and-sufficient

    – Mauro ALLEGRANZA
    Apr 5 at 12:13







  • 17





    Are you perhaps interpreting the word "only" to be qualifying New York? A comma would help to clarify, as would an appropriate pause in the spoken sentence. In other words, do you understand this sentence to be "I am in New York, only if I am in America" or "I am in New York only, if I am in America." If you understood it to be the latter, then I agree that it is illogical. If you understood it to be the former, then hopefully the existing answers have helped you.

    – Richard II
    Apr 5 at 15:09






  • 1





    Technically if you were in New York you might be in a foreign embassy and not in "America"

    – Mark Schultheiss
    Apr 5 at 19:11






  • 1





    @MarkSchultheiss To take your technicality futher, are you still in new york if you are in an embassy? Is yes, then you are also in america (as you are saying the politics are irrelevant). If no, then you are also NOT in america

    – user34150
    Apr 5 at 19:23







  • 5





    The territories of embassies do not belong to the country the embassy represents. It still belongs to the host country. The Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations describes the how and what of embassies; what host countries are required to do, and what they are forbidden to do. But it does not state that the ground the embassy is on has been ceded to the foreign country.

    – Abigail
    Apr 6 at 0:13







9




9





Already discussed many times on this site; see e.g. what-is-the-difference-between-necessary-and-sufficient as well as what-are-the-truth-tables-for-necessary-and-sufficient

– Mauro ALLEGRANZA
Apr 5 at 12:13






Already discussed many times on this site; see e.g. what-is-the-difference-between-necessary-and-sufficient as well as what-are-the-truth-tables-for-necessary-and-sufficient

– Mauro ALLEGRANZA
Apr 5 at 12:13





17




17





Are you perhaps interpreting the word "only" to be qualifying New York? A comma would help to clarify, as would an appropriate pause in the spoken sentence. In other words, do you understand this sentence to be "I am in New York, only if I am in America" or "I am in New York only, if I am in America." If you understood it to be the latter, then I agree that it is illogical. If you understood it to be the former, then hopefully the existing answers have helped you.

– Richard II
Apr 5 at 15:09





Are you perhaps interpreting the word "only" to be qualifying New York? A comma would help to clarify, as would an appropriate pause in the spoken sentence. In other words, do you understand this sentence to be "I am in New York, only if I am in America" or "I am in New York only, if I am in America." If you understood it to be the latter, then I agree that it is illogical. If you understood it to be the former, then hopefully the existing answers have helped you.

– Richard II
Apr 5 at 15:09




1




1





Technically if you were in New York you might be in a foreign embassy and not in "America"

– Mark Schultheiss
Apr 5 at 19:11





Technically if you were in New York you might be in a foreign embassy and not in "America"

– Mark Schultheiss
Apr 5 at 19:11




1




1





@MarkSchultheiss To take your technicality futher, are you still in new york if you are in an embassy? Is yes, then you are also in america (as you are saying the politics are irrelevant). If no, then you are also NOT in america

– user34150
Apr 5 at 19:23






@MarkSchultheiss To take your technicality futher, are you still in new york if you are in an embassy? Is yes, then you are also in america (as you are saying the politics are irrelevant). If no, then you are also NOT in america

– user34150
Apr 5 at 19:23





5




5





The territories of embassies do not belong to the country the embassy represents. It still belongs to the host country. The Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations describes the how and what of embassies; what host countries are required to do, and what they are forbidden to do. But it does not state that the ground the embassy is on has been ceded to the foreign country.

– Abigail
Apr 6 at 0:13





The territories of embassies do not belong to the country the embassy represents. It still belongs to the host country. The Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations describes the how and what of embassies; what host countries are required to do, and what they are forbidden to do. But it does not state that the ground the embassy is on has been ceded to the foreign country.

– Abigail
Apr 6 at 0:13










8 Answers
8






active

oldest

votes


















24














This is an example of the confusion inherent in switching between a natural language like English, and a formal language of logic.



The formulation




X only if Y




is rare in spoken English, but perfectly grammatical, and it typically has a logical meaning equivalent to




If X then Y




Both statements are saying you can't ever have X without Y. However, at first glance it looks closer to




If Y then X




which is entirely different. This represents how English has many different ways of saying the same thing (with incidental connotations and subtleties of meaning that are completely stripped out when you translate to a formal language).






share|improve this answer























  • I understand the logic arguments. And I concur that TECHNICALLY the logic of the two would be the same. However, in common usage, the phrasing of the 2nd clause, using "only" would be interpreted by US English speakers as defining oneself as being in New York because they are in America. Which is obviously not true. Regardless, the "only" usage would be widely misunderstood, whereas the "if . . .then" construction would be interpreted correctly. I suspect there is an error somewhere in interpreting the logic of the two to be the same. But said error is beyond me.

    – Corvus B
    Apr 5 at 23:43







  • 1





    @CorvusB, huh. Now that you point it out, I can see superficially similar constructions such as "I will eat only if I am given yoghurt" that would indeed in common usage mean "if I am given youghurt, I will eat". But I can't make my brain see the sentence in the OP with anything other than its intended meaning, and I'm not sure why.

    – Harry Johnston
    Apr 5 at 23:55











  • @HarryJohnston. Yes - you've brought an excellent example. I am pretty sure the first interpretation most Americans would give the "only" example would be "If I am in America, I am in New York". It might get marked incorrect on a test, but that is more like how people would "hear" the "only" statement.

    – Corvus B
    Apr 6 at 0:20







  • 1





    @CorvusB The sense of "wrongness" you feel is a just a symptom of how formal logic isn't really native to natural language. The suggestion you find in beginner texts that there's a firm, reliable translation between certain English formulations and formal logical equivalents is misleading.

    – Chris Sunami
    Apr 8 at 13:15






  • 1





    @ChrisSunami. Indeed. English is not inherently logical. What you've just said validates my point, yes?

    – Corvus B
    Apr 9 at 17:12


















20














Consider the sentence:




If I am in America then I am in New York.




One could make the antecedent, "I am in America", true by being in Chicago. But then the consequent, "I am in New York", would be false. So this conditional would be false unless we are given other information, such as travel plans, in addition to knowing that I am in America.



However, consider this sentence:




If I am in New York then I am in America.




Now whenever the antecedent, "I am in New York", is true, then so is the consequent, "I am in America". I don't need any additional information for that conditional to be true.



It would be similar for the following sentence:




I am in New York only if I am in America.




Here we are given that "I am in New York" and conclude that "I am in America". Except for English style this means the same as the previous sentence.



The authors of forall x provide a similar example using Paris and France in section "5.4 Condititional". They also provide this symbolization rule:




A sentence can be symbolized as A → B if it can be
paraphrased in English as ‘If A, then B’ or ‘A only if B’.





P. D. Magnus, Tim Button with additions by J. Robert Loftis remixed and revised by Aaron Thomas-Bolduc, Richard Zach, forallx Calgary Remix: An Introduction to Formal Logic, Fall 2018 bis. http://forallx.openlogicproject.org/






share|improve this answer


















  • 1





    This way of converting the sentence to logic does not do justice to the sentence's implications in English. The "only" version of the sentence could easily be read as "if and only if" (that is, a two-way implication).

    – Brilliand
    Apr 5 at 20:20






  • 9





    I'd read "I am in New York only if I am in America" as "I cannot be in New York if I am not in America", which is (more or less) the contrapositive of "If I am in New York, then I am in America", and therefore (more or less) logically equivalent to it. The pragmatic content might differ but as a native English speaker I wouldn't consider the "if and only if" reading natural.

    – Unrelated String
    Apr 5 at 23:26






  • 2





    @UnrelatedString I find phrases using "only if", "is a necessary condition", or "is a sufficient condition" to be difficult to understand as a native English speaker. I would ask the speaker for clarification if I were the listener. I only use "if-then" constructions to make sure I am understood by others. In this context I am using forall x to make a default interpretation of the sentence since I can't ask a speaker for clarification.

    – Frank Hubeny
    Apr 6 at 8:01






  • 1





    @Brilliand I don't think the "only if" construction would be viewed as "if and only if" by a native speaker, but it might suggest that to the listener or cause confusion. However, I agree that symbolizing English sentences risks losing some of the native speaker's intentions. The writers of forall x warn about this as well.

    – Frank Hubeny
    Apr 6 at 8:11






  • 1





    @UnrelatedString Exactly.

    – Eric Duminil
    Apr 6 at 13:39


















9














"A only if B" and "if A, then B" mean the same.



The truth-condition for "if A, then B" excludes the case when A is True and B is False.



"A only if B" means that we cannot have A without B.



The two are equivalent.



See necessary and sufficient.






share|improve this answer
































    7














    The contrapositive of both statements is :



    If I am not in America, then I cannot be in New York.


    A conditional statement is logically equivalent to its contrapositive. It means both your statements are equivalent since they have the same contrapositive.






    share|improve this answer


















    • 2





      I think this answer is correct.

      – Mark Andrews
      Apr 5 at 21:23


















    6














    I see two interpretations of the sentence here. They mean logically different things. In both cases "only" is interpreted as "must be true and cannot be false".




    I am in New York (only if I am in America).



    If I am in New York, it can only be true that I am in America.



    New York => America.




    This is the interpretation everyone else is responding to. It is logically true.




    I can be in (New York only) if I am in America.



    If I am in America, then it can only be true that I am in New York.



    America => New York.




    This one is not logically true, you could be in Iowa.






    share|improve this answer























    • My reading of the OP's first sentence could be paraphrased as "I am in New York, unless I am not in America". It's logically equivalent to your second version, I think, although reads like a statement about a particular person rather than a general statement about everyone.

      – Brilliand
      Apr 5 at 20:16











    • @Brilliand, agreed, I first interpreted it as something like "When I go to America, I only go to New York."

      – usul
      Apr 6 at 7:02


















    4














    These claims have distinctly different connotations. From a pure formal-logic perspective, the "X only if Y" is equivalent to "Y or not X" which is the same as "X implies Y", which is the same as "if X then Y". However, natural language carries more information than its simple-minded reduction to predicate logic.



    The second formulation "If I am in NY then I am in USA" sounds like a simple statement of a containment relationship: it implies that "I" am an unbound variable and informs the listener that NY is within the USA.



    The first formulation connotes something about the speaker's mental state: he entertains the possibility (perhaps even likelihood) of being outside the USA in a place confusingly-similar to NY.






    share|improve this answer






























      2














      One way of analyzing the statements is to look at a truth table. Let's make the following definitions:



      A := "I am in New York"

      B := "I am in America".



      X := "I am in New York only if I am in America"

      Y := "If I am in New York, then I am in America"



      If both A and B are true, then X is true. We can write that as X(TT) = T. We have X(TF) = F (If you are in New York but not in America, then the statement "I am in New York only if I am in America" must be false). X(FT) = T and X(FF) = T; X makes a statement about what has to be true when you're in New York, so if you're not in New York, then X isn't telling you anything so it can't be proven wrong.



      If you analyze Y, you'll find that all the values are the same:

      X(TT) = Y(TT) = T

      X(TF) = Y(TF) = F

      X(FT) = Y(FT) = T

      X(FF) = Y(FF) = T



      Since no matter the truth values of A and B, X has the same truth value as Y, X and Y are equivalent; if you have two statements such that it's not possible for one to be true and the other false, then the two statements are saying essentially the same thing.



      One thing to keep in mind is that in Formal Logic, statements of the form "If S1 then S2" are considered true any time S1 is false; that is, "If S1 then S2" is interpreted as meaning "Whenever S1 is true, S2 is also true". Because of this, "If S1 then S2" is equivalent to "Either S1 is false, or S2 is true" (if S1 is false, then the statement is automatically true, because it doesn't say anything about the situation of S1 being true). And "S1 only if S2 " is also equivalent to "Either S1 is false, or S2 is true".






      share|improve this answer






























        2














        To understand this more intuitively, I think it's helpful to use formatting help and rephrase this a little, while keeping the logic the same.



        Start with this:




        “I am in New York ONLY IF I am in America”




        That means there is no option to be in New York without being in America. The reason why there is no other way is that "only"--it is there to indicate there are no other ways to be in New York and some other country. That's the work it does in this sentence.



        Now consider the second sentence you gave:




        "If I am in New York, then I am in America"




        Let's rephrase that without changing the logic at all:




        "If I am in New York, I MUST BE in America"




        What both of these are saying is that being in New York necessarily entails being in America. You can't be in New York and be any other country. In other words, you have no other option. Which is just what I showed with the first sentence.






        share|improve this answer























          protected by Eliran Apr 6 at 13:29



          Thank you for your interest in this question.
          Because it has attracted low-quality or spam answers that had to be removed, posting an answer now requires 10 reputation on this site (the association bonus does not count).



          Would you like to answer one of these unanswered questions instead?














          8 Answers
          8






          active

          oldest

          votes








          8 Answers
          8






          active

          oldest

          votes









          active

          oldest

          votes






          active

          oldest

          votes









          24














          This is an example of the confusion inherent in switching between a natural language like English, and a formal language of logic.



          The formulation




          X only if Y




          is rare in spoken English, but perfectly grammatical, and it typically has a logical meaning equivalent to




          If X then Y




          Both statements are saying you can't ever have X without Y. However, at first glance it looks closer to




          If Y then X




          which is entirely different. This represents how English has many different ways of saying the same thing (with incidental connotations and subtleties of meaning that are completely stripped out when you translate to a formal language).






          share|improve this answer























          • I understand the logic arguments. And I concur that TECHNICALLY the logic of the two would be the same. However, in common usage, the phrasing of the 2nd clause, using "only" would be interpreted by US English speakers as defining oneself as being in New York because they are in America. Which is obviously not true. Regardless, the "only" usage would be widely misunderstood, whereas the "if . . .then" construction would be interpreted correctly. I suspect there is an error somewhere in interpreting the logic of the two to be the same. But said error is beyond me.

            – Corvus B
            Apr 5 at 23:43







          • 1





            @CorvusB, huh. Now that you point it out, I can see superficially similar constructions such as "I will eat only if I am given yoghurt" that would indeed in common usage mean "if I am given youghurt, I will eat". But I can't make my brain see the sentence in the OP with anything other than its intended meaning, and I'm not sure why.

            – Harry Johnston
            Apr 5 at 23:55











          • @HarryJohnston. Yes - you've brought an excellent example. I am pretty sure the first interpretation most Americans would give the "only" example would be "If I am in America, I am in New York". It might get marked incorrect on a test, but that is more like how people would "hear" the "only" statement.

            – Corvus B
            Apr 6 at 0:20







          • 1





            @CorvusB The sense of "wrongness" you feel is a just a symptom of how formal logic isn't really native to natural language. The suggestion you find in beginner texts that there's a firm, reliable translation between certain English formulations and formal logical equivalents is misleading.

            – Chris Sunami
            Apr 8 at 13:15






          • 1





            @ChrisSunami. Indeed. English is not inherently logical. What you've just said validates my point, yes?

            – Corvus B
            Apr 9 at 17:12















          24














          This is an example of the confusion inherent in switching between a natural language like English, and a formal language of logic.



          The formulation




          X only if Y




          is rare in spoken English, but perfectly grammatical, and it typically has a logical meaning equivalent to




          If X then Y




          Both statements are saying you can't ever have X without Y. However, at first glance it looks closer to




          If Y then X




          which is entirely different. This represents how English has many different ways of saying the same thing (with incidental connotations and subtleties of meaning that are completely stripped out when you translate to a formal language).






          share|improve this answer























          • I understand the logic arguments. And I concur that TECHNICALLY the logic of the two would be the same. However, in common usage, the phrasing of the 2nd clause, using "only" would be interpreted by US English speakers as defining oneself as being in New York because they are in America. Which is obviously not true. Regardless, the "only" usage would be widely misunderstood, whereas the "if . . .then" construction would be interpreted correctly. I suspect there is an error somewhere in interpreting the logic of the two to be the same. But said error is beyond me.

            – Corvus B
            Apr 5 at 23:43







          • 1





            @CorvusB, huh. Now that you point it out, I can see superficially similar constructions such as "I will eat only if I am given yoghurt" that would indeed in common usage mean "if I am given youghurt, I will eat". But I can't make my brain see the sentence in the OP with anything other than its intended meaning, and I'm not sure why.

            – Harry Johnston
            Apr 5 at 23:55











          • @HarryJohnston. Yes - you've brought an excellent example. I am pretty sure the first interpretation most Americans would give the "only" example would be "If I am in America, I am in New York". It might get marked incorrect on a test, but that is more like how people would "hear" the "only" statement.

            – Corvus B
            Apr 6 at 0:20







          • 1





            @CorvusB The sense of "wrongness" you feel is a just a symptom of how formal logic isn't really native to natural language. The suggestion you find in beginner texts that there's a firm, reliable translation between certain English formulations and formal logical equivalents is misleading.

            – Chris Sunami
            Apr 8 at 13:15






          • 1





            @ChrisSunami. Indeed. English is not inherently logical. What you've just said validates my point, yes?

            – Corvus B
            Apr 9 at 17:12













          24












          24








          24







          This is an example of the confusion inherent in switching between a natural language like English, and a formal language of logic.



          The formulation




          X only if Y




          is rare in spoken English, but perfectly grammatical, and it typically has a logical meaning equivalent to




          If X then Y




          Both statements are saying you can't ever have X without Y. However, at first glance it looks closer to




          If Y then X




          which is entirely different. This represents how English has many different ways of saying the same thing (with incidental connotations and subtleties of meaning that are completely stripped out when you translate to a formal language).






          share|improve this answer













          This is an example of the confusion inherent in switching between a natural language like English, and a formal language of logic.



          The formulation




          X only if Y




          is rare in spoken English, but perfectly grammatical, and it typically has a logical meaning equivalent to




          If X then Y




          Both statements are saying you can't ever have X without Y. However, at first glance it looks closer to




          If Y then X




          which is entirely different. This represents how English has many different ways of saying the same thing (with incidental connotations and subtleties of meaning that are completely stripped out when you translate to a formal language).







          share|improve this answer












          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer










          answered Apr 5 at 14:05









          Chris SunamiChris Sunami

          21.3k12964




          21.3k12964












          • I understand the logic arguments. And I concur that TECHNICALLY the logic of the two would be the same. However, in common usage, the phrasing of the 2nd clause, using "only" would be interpreted by US English speakers as defining oneself as being in New York because they are in America. Which is obviously not true. Regardless, the "only" usage would be widely misunderstood, whereas the "if . . .then" construction would be interpreted correctly. I suspect there is an error somewhere in interpreting the logic of the two to be the same. But said error is beyond me.

            – Corvus B
            Apr 5 at 23:43







          • 1





            @CorvusB, huh. Now that you point it out, I can see superficially similar constructions such as "I will eat only if I am given yoghurt" that would indeed in common usage mean "if I am given youghurt, I will eat". But I can't make my brain see the sentence in the OP with anything other than its intended meaning, and I'm not sure why.

            – Harry Johnston
            Apr 5 at 23:55











          • @HarryJohnston. Yes - you've brought an excellent example. I am pretty sure the first interpretation most Americans would give the "only" example would be "If I am in America, I am in New York". It might get marked incorrect on a test, but that is more like how people would "hear" the "only" statement.

            – Corvus B
            Apr 6 at 0:20







          • 1





            @CorvusB The sense of "wrongness" you feel is a just a symptom of how formal logic isn't really native to natural language. The suggestion you find in beginner texts that there's a firm, reliable translation between certain English formulations and formal logical equivalents is misleading.

            – Chris Sunami
            Apr 8 at 13:15






          • 1





            @ChrisSunami. Indeed. English is not inherently logical. What you've just said validates my point, yes?

            – Corvus B
            Apr 9 at 17:12

















          • I understand the logic arguments. And I concur that TECHNICALLY the logic of the two would be the same. However, in common usage, the phrasing of the 2nd clause, using "only" would be interpreted by US English speakers as defining oneself as being in New York because they are in America. Which is obviously not true. Regardless, the "only" usage would be widely misunderstood, whereas the "if . . .then" construction would be interpreted correctly. I suspect there is an error somewhere in interpreting the logic of the two to be the same. But said error is beyond me.

            – Corvus B
            Apr 5 at 23:43







          • 1





            @CorvusB, huh. Now that you point it out, I can see superficially similar constructions such as "I will eat only if I am given yoghurt" that would indeed in common usage mean "if I am given youghurt, I will eat". But I can't make my brain see the sentence in the OP with anything other than its intended meaning, and I'm not sure why.

            – Harry Johnston
            Apr 5 at 23:55











          • @HarryJohnston. Yes - you've brought an excellent example. I am pretty sure the first interpretation most Americans would give the "only" example would be "If I am in America, I am in New York". It might get marked incorrect on a test, but that is more like how people would "hear" the "only" statement.

            – Corvus B
            Apr 6 at 0:20







          • 1





            @CorvusB The sense of "wrongness" you feel is a just a symptom of how formal logic isn't really native to natural language. The suggestion you find in beginner texts that there's a firm, reliable translation between certain English formulations and formal logical equivalents is misleading.

            – Chris Sunami
            Apr 8 at 13:15






          • 1





            @ChrisSunami. Indeed. English is not inherently logical. What you've just said validates my point, yes?

            – Corvus B
            Apr 9 at 17:12
















          I understand the logic arguments. And I concur that TECHNICALLY the logic of the two would be the same. However, in common usage, the phrasing of the 2nd clause, using "only" would be interpreted by US English speakers as defining oneself as being in New York because they are in America. Which is obviously not true. Regardless, the "only" usage would be widely misunderstood, whereas the "if . . .then" construction would be interpreted correctly. I suspect there is an error somewhere in interpreting the logic of the two to be the same. But said error is beyond me.

          – Corvus B
          Apr 5 at 23:43






          I understand the logic arguments. And I concur that TECHNICALLY the logic of the two would be the same. However, in common usage, the phrasing of the 2nd clause, using "only" would be interpreted by US English speakers as defining oneself as being in New York because they are in America. Which is obviously not true. Regardless, the "only" usage would be widely misunderstood, whereas the "if . . .then" construction would be interpreted correctly. I suspect there is an error somewhere in interpreting the logic of the two to be the same. But said error is beyond me.

          – Corvus B
          Apr 5 at 23:43





          1




          1





          @CorvusB, huh. Now that you point it out, I can see superficially similar constructions such as "I will eat only if I am given yoghurt" that would indeed in common usage mean "if I am given youghurt, I will eat". But I can't make my brain see the sentence in the OP with anything other than its intended meaning, and I'm not sure why.

          – Harry Johnston
          Apr 5 at 23:55





          @CorvusB, huh. Now that you point it out, I can see superficially similar constructions such as "I will eat only if I am given yoghurt" that would indeed in common usage mean "if I am given youghurt, I will eat". But I can't make my brain see the sentence in the OP with anything other than its intended meaning, and I'm not sure why.

          – Harry Johnston
          Apr 5 at 23:55













          @HarryJohnston. Yes - you've brought an excellent example. I am pretty sure the first interpretation most Americans would give the "only" example would be "If I am in America, I am in New York". It might get marked incorrect on a test, but that is more like how people would "hear" the "only" statement.

          – Corvus B
          Apr 6 at 0:20






          @HarryJohnston. Yes - you've brought an excellent example. I am pretty sure the first interpretation most Americans would give the "only" example would be "If I am in America, I am in New York". It might get marked incorrect on a test, but that is more like how people would "hear" the "only" statement.

          – Corvus B
          Apr 6 at 0:20





          1




          1





          @CorvusB The sense of "wrongness" you feel is a just a symptom of how formal logic isn't really native to natural language. The suggestion you find in beginner texts that there's a firm, reliable translation between certain English formulations and formal logical equivalents is misleading.

          – Chris Sunami
          Apr 8 at 13:15





          @CorvusB The sense of "wrongness" you feel is a just a symptom of how formal logic isn't really native to natural language. The suggestion you find in beginner texts that there's a firm, reliable translation between certain English formulations and formal logical equivalents is misleading.

          – Chris Sunami
          Apr 8 at 13:15




          1




          1





          @ChrisSunami. Indeed. English is not inherently logical. What you've just said validates my point, yes?

          – Corvus B
          Apr 9 at 17:12





          @ChrisSunami. Indeed. English is not inherently logical. What you've just said validates my point, yes?

          – Corvus B
          Apr 9 at 17:12











          20














          Consider the sentence:




          If I am in America then I am in New York.




          One could make the antecedent, "I am in America", true by being in Chicago. But then the consequent, "I am in New York", would be false. So this conditional would be false unless we are given other information, such as travel plans, in addition to knowing that I am in America.



          However, consider this sentence:




          If I am in New York then I am in America.




          Now whenever the antecedent, "I am in New York", is true, then so is the consequent, "I am in America". I don't need any additional information for that conditional to be true.



          It would be similar for the following sentence:




          I am in New York only if I am in America.




          Here we are given that "I am in New York" and conclude that "I am in America". Except for English style this means the same as the previous sentence.



          The authors of forall x provide a similar example using Paris and France in section "5.4 Condititional". They also provide this symbolization rule:




          A sentence can be symbolized as A → B if it can be
          paraphrased in English as ‘If A, then B’ or ‘A only if B’.





          P. D. Magnus, Tim Button with additions by J. Robert Loftis remixed and revised by Aaron Thomas-Bolduc, Richard Zach, forallx Calgary Remix: An Introduction to Formal Logic, Fall 2018 bis. http://forallx.openlogicproject.org/






          share|improve this answer


















          • 1





            This way of converting the sentence to logic does not do justice to the sentence's implications in English. The "only" version of the sentence could easily be read as "if and only if" (that is, a two-way implication).

            – Brilliand
            Apr 5 at 20:20






          • 9





            I'd read "I am in New York only if I am in America" as "I cannot be in New York if I am not in America", which is (more or less) the contrapositive of "If I am in New York, then I am in America", and therefore (more or less) logically equivalent to it. The pragmatic content might differ but as a native English speaker I wouldn't consider the "if and only if" reading natural.

            – Unrelated String
            Apr 5 at 23:26






          • 2





            @UnrelatedString I find phrases using "only if", "is a necessary condition", or "is a sufficient condition" to be difficult to understand as a native English speaker. I would ask the speaker for clarification if I were the listener. I only use "if-then" constructions to make sure I am understood by others. In this context I am using forall x to make a default interpretation of the sentence since I can't ask a speaker for clarification.

            – Frank Hubeny
            Apr 6 at 8:01






          • 1





            @Brilliand I don't think the "only if" construction would be viewed as "if and only if" by a native speaker, but it might suggest that to the listener or cause confusion. However, I agree that symbolizing English sentences risks losing some of the native speaker's intentions. The writers of forall x warn about this as well.

            – Frank Hubeny
            Apr 6 at 8:11






          • 1





            @UnrelatedString Exactly.

            – Eric Duminil
            Apr 6 at 13:39















          20














          Consider the sentence:




          If I am in America then I am in New York.




          One could make the antecedent, "I am in America", true by being in Chicago. But then the consequent, "I am in New York", would be false. So this conditional would be false unless we are given other information, such as travel plans, in addition to knowing that I am in America.



          However, consider this sentence:




          If I am in New York then I am in America.




          Now whenever the antecedent, "I am in New York", is true, then so is the consequent, "I am in America". I don't need any additional information for that conditional to be true.



          It would be similar for the following sentence:




          I am in New York only if I am in America.




          Here we are given that "I am in New York" and conclude that "I am in America". Except for English style this means the same as the previous sentence.



          The authors of forall x provide a similar example using Paris and France in section "5.4 Condititional". They also provide this symbolization rule:




          A sentence can be symbolized as A → B if it can be
          paraphrased in English as ‘If A, then B’ or ‘A only if B’.





          P. D. Magnus, Tim Button with additions by J. Robert Loftis remixed and revised by Aaron Thomas-Bolduc, Richard Zach, forallx Calgary Remix: An Introduction to Formal Logic, Fall 2018 bis. http://forallx.openlogicproject.org/






          share|improve this answer


















          • 1





            This way of converting the sentence to logic does not do justice to the sentence's implications in English. The "only" version of the sentence could easily be read as "if and only if" (that is, a two-way implication).

            – Brilliand
            Apr 5 at 20:20






          • 9





            I'd read "I am in New York only if I am in America" as "I cannot be in New York if I am not in America", which is (more or less) the contrapositive of "If I am in New York, then I am in America", and therefore (more or less) logically equivalent to it. The pragmatic content might differ but as a native English speaker I wouldn't consider the "if and only if" reading natural.

            – Unrelated String
            Apr 5 at 23:26






          • 2





            @UnrelatedString I find phrases using "only if", "is a necessary condition", or "is a sufficient condition" to be difficult to understand as a native English speaker. I would ask the speaker for clarification if I were the listener. I only use "if-then" constructions to make sure I am understood by others. In this context I am using forall x to make a default interpretation of the sentence since I can't ask a speaker for clarification.

            – Frank Hubeny
            Apr 6 at 8:01






          • 1





            @Brilliand I don't think the "only if" construction would be viewed as "if and only if" by a native speaker, but it might suggest that to the listener or cause confusion. However, I agree that symbolizing English sentences risks losing some of the native speaker's intentions. The writers of forall x warn about this as well.

            – Frank Hubeny
            Apr 6 at 8:11






          • 1





            @UnrelatedString Exactly.

            – Eric Duminil
            Apr 6 at 13:39













          20












          20








          20







          Consider the sentence:




          If I am in America then I am in New York.




          One could make the antecedent, "I am in America", true by being in Chicago. But then the consequent, "I am in New York", would be false. So this conditional would be false unless we are given other information, such as travel plans, in addition to knowing that I am in America.



          However, consider this sentence:




          If I am in New York then I am in America.




          Now whenever the antecedent, "I am in New York", is true, then so is the consequent, "I am in America". I don't need any additional information for that conditional to be true.



          It would be similar for the following sentence:




          I am in New York only if I am in America.




          Here we are given that "I am in New York" and conclude that "I am in America". Except for English style this means the same as the previous sentence.



          The authors of forall x provide a similar example using Paris and France in section "5.4 Condititional". They also provide this symbolization rule:




          A sentence can be symbolized as A → B if it can be
          paraphrased in English as ‘If A, then B’ or ‘A only if B’.





          P. D. Magnus, Tim Button with additions by J. Robert Loftis remixed and revised by Aaron Thomas-Bolduc, Richard Zach, forallx Calgary Remix: An Introduction to Formal Logic, Fall 2018 bis. http://forallx.openlogicproject.org/






          share|improve this answer













          Consider the sentence:




          If I am in America then I am in New York.




          One could make the antecedent, "I am in America", true by being in Chicago. But then the consequent, "I am in New York", would be false. So this conditional would be false unless we are given other information, such as travel plans, in addition to knowing that I am in America.



          However, consider this sentence:




          If I am in New York then I am in America.




          Now whenever the antecedent, "I am in New York", is true, then so is the consequent, "I am in America". I don't need any additional information for that conditional to be true.



          It would be similar for the following sentence:




          I am in New York only if I am in America.




          Here we are given that "I am in New York" and conclude that "I am in America". Except for English style this means the same as the previous sentence.



          The authors of forall x provide a similar example using Paris and France in section "5.4 Condititional". They also provide this symbolization rule:




          A sentence can be symbolized as A → B if it can be
          paraphrased in English as ‘If A, then B’ or ‘A only if B’.





          P. D. Magnus, Tim Button with additions by J. Robert Loftis remixed and revised by Aaron Thomas-Bolduc, Richard Zach, forallx Calgary Remix: An Introduction to Formal Logic, Fall 2018 bis. http://forallx.openlogicproject.org/







          share|improve this answer












          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer










          answered Apr 5 at 12:49









          Frank HubenyFrank Hubeny

          10.7k51559




          10.7k51559







          • 1





            This way of converting the sentence to logic does not do justice to the sentence's implications in English. The "only" version of the sentence could easily be read as "if and only if" (that is, a two-way implication).

            – Brilliand
            Apr 5 at 20:20






          • 9





            I'd read "I am in New York only if I am in America" as "I cannot be in New York if I am not in America", which is (more or less) the contrapositive of "If I am in New York, then I am in America", and therefore (more or less) logically equivalent to it. The pragmatic content might differ but as a native English speaker I wouldn't consider the "if and only if" reading natural.

            – Unrelated String
            Apr 5 at 23:26






          • 2





            @UnrelatedString I find phrases using "only if", "is a necessary condition", or "is a sufficient condition" to be difficult to understand as a native English speaker. I would ask the speaker for clarification if I were the listener. I only use "if-then" constructions to make sure I am understood by others. In this context I am using forall x to make a default interpretation of the sentence since I can't ask a speaker for clarification.

            – Frank Hubeny
            Apr 6 at 8:01






          • 1





            @Brilliand I don't think the "only if" construction would be viewed as "if and only if" by a native speaker, but it might suggest that to the listener or cause confusion. However, I agree that symbolizing English sentences risks losing some of the native speaker's intentions. The writers of forall x warn about this as well.

            – Frank Hubeny
            Apr 6 at 8:11






          • 1





            @UnrelatedString Exactly.

            – Eric Duminil
            Apr 6 at 13:39












          • 1





            This way of converting the sentence to logic does not do justice to the sentence's implications in English. The "only" version of the sentence could easily be read as "if and only if" (that is, a two-way implication).

            – Brilliand
            Apr 5 at 20:20






          • 9





            I'd read "I am in New York only if I am in America" as "I cannot be in New York if I am not in America", which is (more or less) the contrapositive of "If I am in New York, then I am in America", and therefore (more or less) logically equivalent to it. The pragmatic content might differ but as a native English speaker I wouldn't consider the "if and only if" reading natural.

            – Unrelated String
            Apr 5 at 23:26






          • 2





            @UnrelatedString I find phrases using "only if", "is a necessary condition", or "is a sufficient condition" to be difficult to understand as a native English speaker. I would ask the speaker for clarification if I were the listener. I only use "if-then" constructions to make sure I am understood by others. In this context I am using forall x to make a default interpretation of the sentence since I can't ask a speaker for clarification.

            – Frank Hubeny
            Apr 6 at 8:01






          • 1





            @Brilliand I don't think the "only if" construction would be viewed as "if and only if" by a native speaker, but it might suggest that to the listener or cause confusion. However, I agree that symbolizing English sentences risks losing some of the native speaker's intentions. The writers of forall x warn about this as well.

            – Frank Hubeny
            Apr 6 at 8:11






          • 1





            @UnrelatedString Exactly.

            – Eric Duminil
            Apr 6 at 13:39







          1




          1





          This way of converting the sentence to logic does not do justice to the sentence's implications in English. The "only" version of the sentence could easily be read as "if and only if" (that is, a two-way implication).

          – Brilliand
          Apr 5 at 20:20





          This way of converting the sentence to logic does not do justice to the sentence's implications in English. The "only" version of the sentence could easily be read as "if and only if" (that is, a two-way implication).

          – Brilliand
          Apr 5 at 20:20




          9




          9





          I'd read "I am in New York only if I am in America" as "I cannot be in New York if I am not in America", which is (more or less) the contrapositive of "If I am in New York, then I am in America", and therefore (more or less) logically equivalent to it. The pragmatic content might differ but as a native English speaker I wouldn't consider the "if and only if" reading natural.

          – Unrelated String
          Apr 5 at 23:26





          I'd read "I am in New York only if I am in America" as "I cannot be in New York if I am not in America", which is (more or less) the contrapositive of "If I am in New York, then I am in America", and therefore (more or less) logically equivalent to it. The pragmatic content might differ but as a native English speaker I wouldn't consider the "if and only if" reading natural.

          – Unrelated String
          Apr 5 at 23:26




          2




          2





          @UnrelatedString I find phrases using "only if", "is a necessary condition", or "is a sufficient condition" to be difficult to understand as a native English speaker. I would ask the speaker for clarification if I were the listener. I only use "if-then" constructions to make sure I am understood by others. In this context I am using forall x to make a default interpretation of the sentence since I can't ask a speaker for clarification.

          – Frank Hubeny
          Apr 6 at 8:01





          @UnrelatedString I find phrases using "only if", "is a necessary condition", or "is a sufficient condition" to be difficult to understand as a native English speaker. I would ask the speaker for clarification if I were the listener. I only use "if-then" constructions to make sure I am understood by others. In this context I am using forall x to make a default interpretation of the sentence since I can't ask a speaker for clarification.

          – Frank Hubeny
          Apr 6 at 8:01




          1




          1





          @Brilliand I don't think the "only if" construction would be viewed as "if and only if" by a native speaker, but it might suggest that to the listener or cause confusion. However, I agree that symbolizing English sentences risks losing some of the native speaker's intentions. The writers of forall x warn about this as well.

          – Frank Hubeny
          Apr 6 at 8:11





          @Brilliand I don't think the "only if" construction would be viewed as "if and only if" by a native speaker, but it might suggest that to the listener or cause confusion. However, I agree that symbolizing English sentences risks losing some of the native speaker's intentions. The writers of forall x warn about this as well.

          – Frank Hubeny
          Apr 6 at 8:11




          1




          1





          @UnrelatedString Exactly.

          – Eric Duminil
          Apr 6 at 13:39





          @UnrelatedString Exactly.

          – Eric Duminil
          Apr 6 at 13:39











          9














          "A only if B" and "if A, then B" mean the same.



          The truth-condition for "if A, then B" excludes the case when A is True and B is False.



          "A only if B" means that we cannot have A without B.



          The two are equivalent.



          See necessary and sufficient.






          share|improve this answer





























            9














            "A only if B" and "if A, then B" mean the same.



            The truth-condition for "if A, then B" excludes the case when A is True and B is False.



            "A only if B" means that we cannot have A without B.



            The two are equivalent.



            See necessary and sufficient.






            share|improve this answer



























              9












              9








              9







              "A only if B" and "if A, then B" mean the same.



              The truth-condition for "if A, then B" excludes the case when A is True and B is False.



              "A only if B" means that we cannot have A without B.



              The two are equivalent.



              See necessary and sufficient.






              share|improve this answer















              "A only if B" and "if A, then B" mean the same.



              The truth-condition for "if A, then B" excludes the case when A is True and B is False.



              "A only if B" means that we cannot have A without B.



              The two are equivalent.



              See necessary and sufficient.







              share|improve this answer














              share|improve this answer



              share|improve this answer








              edited Apr 5 at 13:46

























              answered Apr 5 at 12:12









              Mauro ALLEGRANZAMauro ALLEGRANZA

              30.1k22067




              30.1k22067





















                  7














                  The contrapositive of both statements is :



                  If I am not in America, then I cannot be in New York.


                  A conditional statement is logically equivalent to its contrapositive. It means both your statements are equivalent since they have the same contrapositive.






                  share|improve this answer


















                  • 2





                    I think this answer is correct.

                    – Mark Andrews
                    Apr 5 at 21:23















                  7














                  The contrapositive of both statements is :



                  If I am not in America, then I cannot be in New York.


                  A conditional statement is logically equivalent to its contrapositive. It means both your statements are equivalent since they have the same contrapositive.






                  share|improve this answer


















                  • 2





                    I think this answer is correct.

                    – Mark Andrews
                    Apr 5 at 21:23













                  7












                  7








                  7







                  The contrapositive of both statements is :



                  If I am not in America, then I cannot be in New York.


                  A conditional statement is logically equivalent to its contrapositive. It means both your statements are equivalent since they have the same contrapositive.






                  share|improve this answer













                  The contrapositive of both statements is :



                  If I am not in America, then I cannot be in New York.


                  A conditional statement is logically equivalent to its contrapositive. It means both your statements are equivalent since they have the same contrapositive.







                  share|improve this answer












                  share|improve this answer



                  share|improve this answer










                  answered Apr 5 at 19:50









                  Eric DuminilEric Duminil

                  96649




                  96649







                  • 2





                    I think this answer is correct.

                    – Mark Andrews
                    Apr 5 at 21:23












                  • 2





                    I think this answer is correct.

                    – Mark Andrews
                    Apr 5 at 21:23







                  2




                  2





                  I think this answer is correct.

                  – Mark Andrews
                  Apr 5 at 21:23





                  I think this answer is correct.

                  – Mark Andrews
                  Apr 5 at 21:23











                  6














                  I see two interpretations of the sentence here. They mean logically different things. In both cases "only" is interpreted as "must be true and cannot be false".




                  I am in New York (only if I am in America).



                  If I am in New York, it can only be true that I am in America.



                  New York => America.




                  This is the interpretation everyone else is responding to. It is logically true.




                  I can be in (New York only) if I am in America.



                  If I am in America, then it can only be true that I am in New York.



                  America => New York.




                  This one is not logically true, you could be in Iowa.






                  share|improve this answer























                  • My reading of the OP's first sentence could be paraphrased as "I am in New York, unless I am not in America". It's logically equivalent to your second version, I think, although reads like a statement about a particular person rather than a general statement about everyone.

                    – Brilliand
                    Apr 5 at 20:16











                  • @Brilliand, agreed, I first interpreted it as something like "When I go to America, I only go to New York."

                    – usul
                    Apr 6 at 7:02















                  6














                  I see two interpretations of the sentence here. They mean logically different things. In both cases "only" is interpreted as "must be true and cannot be false".




                  I am in New York (only if I am in America).



                  If I am in New York, it can only be true that I am in America.



                  New York => America.




                  This is the interpretation everyone else is responding to. It is logically true.




                  I can be in (New York only) if I am in America.



                  If I am in America, then it can only be true that I am in New York.



                  America => New York.




                  This one is not logically true, you could be in Iowa.






                  share|improve this answer























                  • My reading of the OP's first sentence could be paraphrased as "I am in New York, unless I am not in America". It's logically equivalent to your second version, I think, although reads like a statement about a particular person rather than a general statement about everyone.

                    – Brilliand
                    Apr 5 at 20:16











                  • @Brilliand, agreed, I first interpreted it as something like "When I go to America, I only go to New York."

                    – usul
                    Apr 6 at 7:02













                  6












                  6








                  6







                  I see two interpretations of the sentence here. They mean logically different things. In both cases "only" is interpreted as "must be true and cannot be false".




                  I am in New York (only if I am in America).



                  If I am in New York, it can only be true that I am in America.



                  New York => America.




                  This is the interpretation everyone else is responding to. It is logically true.




                  I can be in (New York only) if I am in America.



                  If I am in America, then it can only be true that I am in New York.



                  America => New York.




                  This one is not logically true, you could be in Iowa.






                  share|improve this answer













                  I see two interpretations of the sentence here. They mean logically different things. In both cases "only" is interpreted as "must be true and cannot be false".




                  I am in New York (only if I am in America).



                  If I am in New York, it can only be true that I am in America.



                  New York => America.




                  This is the interpretation everyone else is responding to. It is logically true.




                  I can be in (New York only) if I am in America.



                  If I am in America, then it can only be true that I am in New York.



                  America => New York.




                  This one is not logically true, you could be in Iowa.







                  share|improve this answer












                  share|improve this answer



                  share|improve this answer










                  answered Apr 5 at 15:50









                  usulusul

                  1612




                  1612












                  • My reading of the OP's first sentence could be paraphrased as "I am in New York, unless I am not in America". It's logically equivalent to your second version, I think, although reads like a statement about a particular person rather than a general statement about everyone.

                    – Brilliand
                    Apr 5 at 20:16











                  • @Brilliand, agreed, I first interpreted it as something like "When I go to America, I only go to New York."

                    – usul
                    Apr 6 at 7:02

















                  • My reading of the OP's first sentence could be paraphrased as "I am in New York, unless I am not in America". It's logically equivalent to your second version, I think, although reads like a statement about a particular person rather than a general statement about everyone.

                    – Brilliand
                    Apr 5 at 20:16











                  • @Brilliand, agreed, I first interpreted it as something like "When I go to America, I only go to New York."

                    – usul
                    Apr 6 at 7:02
















                  My reading of the OP's first sentence could be paraphrased as "I am in New York, unless I am not in America". It's logically equivalent to your second version, I think, although reads like a statement about a particular person rather than a general statement about everyone.

                  – Brilliand
                  Apr 5 at 20:16





                  My reading of the OP's first sentence could be paraphrased as "I am in New York, unless I am not in America". It's logically equivalent to your second version, I think, although reads like a statement about a particular person rather than a general statement about everyone.

                  – Brilliand
                  Apr 5 at 20:16













                  @Brilliand, agreed, I first interpreted it as something like "When I go to America, I only go to New York."

                  – usul
                  Apr 6 at 7:02





                  @Brilliand, agreed, I first interpreted it as something like "When I go to America, I only go to New York."

                  – usul
                  Apr 6 at 7:02











                  4














                  These claims have distinctly different connotations. From a pure formal-logic perspective, the "X only if Y" is equivalent to "Y or not X" which is the same as "X implies Y", which is the same as "if X then Y". However, natural language carries more information than its simple-minded reduction to predicate logic.



                  The second formulation "If I am in NY then I am in USA" sounds like a simple statement of a containment relationship: it implies that "I" am an unbound variable and informs the listener that NY is within the USA.



                  The first formulation connotes something about the speaker's mental state: he entertains the possibility (perhaps even likelihood) of being outside the USA in a place confusingly-similar to NY.






                  share|improve this answer



























                    4














                    These claims have distinctly different connotations. From a pure formal-logic perspective, the "X only if Y" is equivalent to "Y or not X" which is the same as "X implies Y", which is the same as "if X then Y". However, natural language carries more information than its simple-minded reduction to predicate logic.



                    The second formulation "If I am in NY then I am in USA" sounds like a simple statement of a containment relationship: it implies that "I" am an unbound variable and informs the listener that NY is within the USA.



                    The first formulation connotes something about the speaker's mental state: he entertains the possibility (perhaps even likelihood) of being outside the USA in a place confusingly-similar to NY.






                    share|improve this answer

























                      4












                      4








                      4







                      These claims have distinctly different connotations. From a pure formal-logic perspective, the "X only if Y" is equivalent to "Y or not X" which is the same as "X implies Y", which is the same as "if X then Y". However, natural language carries more information than its simple-minded reduction to predicate logic.



                      The second formulation "If I am in NY then I am in USA" sounds like a simple statement of a containment relationship: it implies that "I" am an unbound variable and informs the listener that NY is within the USA.



                      The first formulation connotes something about the speaker's mental state: he entertains the possibility (perhaps even likelihood) of being outside the USA in a place confusingly-similar to NY.






                      share|improve this answer













                      These claims have distinctly different connotations. From a pure formal-logic perspective, the "X only if Y" is equivalent to "Y or not X" which is the same as "X implies Y", which is the same as "if X then Y". However, natural language carries more information than its simple-minded reduction to predicate logic.



                      The second formulation "If I am in NY then I am in USA" sounds like a simple statement of a containment relationship: it implies that "I" am an unbound variable and informs the listener that NY is within the USA.



                      The first formulation connotes something about the speaker's mental state: he entertains the possibility (perhaps even likelihood) of being outside the USA in a place confusingly-similar to NY.







                      share|improve this answer












                      share|improve this answer



                      share|improve this answer










                      answered Apr 5 at 19:27









                      IanIan

                      1412




                      1412





















                          2














                          One way of analyzing the statements is to look at a truth table. Let's make the following definitions:



                          A := "I am in New York"

                          B := "I am in America".



                          X := "I am in New York only if I am in America"

                          Y := "If I am in New York, then I am in America"



                          If both A and B are true, then X is true. We can write that as X(TT) = T. We have X(TF) = F (If you are in New York but not in America, then the statement "I am in New York only if I am in America" must be false). X(FT) = T and X(FF) = T; X makes a statement about what has to be true when you're in New York, so if you're not in New York, then X isn't telling you anything so it can't be proven wrong.



                          If you analyze Y, you'll find that all the values are the same:

                          X(TT) = Y(TT) = T

                          X(TF) = Y(TF) = F

                          X(FT) = Y(FT) = T

                          X(FF) = Y(FF) = T



                          Since no matter the truth values of A and B, X has the same truth value as Y, X and Y are equivalent; if you have two statements such that it's not possible for one to be true and the other false, then the two statements are saying essentially the same thing.



                          One thing to keep in mind is that in Formal Logic, statements of the form "If S1 then S2" are considered true any time S1 is false; that is, "If S1 then S2" is interpreted as meaning "Whenever S1 is true, S2 is also true". Because of this, "If S1 then S2" is equivalent to "Either S1 is false, or S2 is true" (if S1 is false, then the statement is automatically true, because it doesn't say anything about the situation of S1 being true). And "S1 only if S2 " is also equivalent to "Either S1 is false, or S2 is true".






                          share|improve this answer



























                            2














                            One way of analyzing the statements is to look at a truth table. Let's make the following definitions:



                            A := "I am in New York"

                            B := "I am in America".



                            X := "I am in New York only if I am in America"

                            Y := "If I am in New York, then I am in America"



                            If both A and B are true, then X is true. We can write that as X(TT) = T. We have X(TF) = F (If you are in New York but not in America, then the statement "I am in New York only if I am in America" must be false). X(FT) = T and X(FF) = T; X makes a statement about what has to be true when you're in New York, so if you're not in New York, then X isn't telling you anything so it can't be proven wrong.



                            If you analyze Y, you'll find that all the values are the same:

                            X(TT) = Y(TT) = T

                            X(TF) = Y(TF) = F

                            X(FT) = Y(FT) = T

                            X(FF) = Y(FF) = T



                            Since no matter the truth values of A and B, X has the same truth value as Y, X and Y are equivalent; if you have two statements such that it's not possible for one to be true and the other false, then the two statements are saying essentially the same thing.



                            One thing to keep in mind is that in Formal Logic, statements of the form "If S1 then S2" are considered true any time S1 is false; that is, "If S1 then S2" is interpreted as meaning "Whenever S1 is true, S2 is also true". Because of this, "If S1 then S2" is equivalent to "Either S1 is false, or S2 is true" (if S1 is false, then the statement is automatically true, because it doesn't say anything about the situation of S1 being true). And "S1 only if S2 " is also equivalent to "Either S1 is false, or S2 is true".






                            share|improve this answer

























                              2












                              2








                              2







                              One way of analyzing the statements is to look at a truth table. Let's make the following definitions:



                              A := "I am in New York"

                              B := "I am in America".



                              X := "I am in New York only if I am in America"

                              Y := "If I am in New York, then I am in America"



                              If both A and B are true, then X is true. We can write that as X(TT) = T. We have X(TF) = F (If you are in New York but not in America, then the statement "I am in New York only if I am in America" must be false). X(FT) = T and X(FF) = T; X makes a statement about what has to be true when you're in New York, so if you're not in New York, then X isn't telling you anything so it can't be proven wrong.



                              If you analyze Y, you'll find that all the values are the same:

                              X(TT) = Y(TT) = T

                              X(TF) = Y(TF) = F

                              X(FT) = Y(FT) = T

                              X(FF) = Y(FF) = T



                              Since no matter the truth values of A and B, X has the same truth value as Y, X and Y are equivalent; if you have two statements such that it's not possible for one to be true and the other false, then the two statements are saying essentially the same thing.



                              One thing to keep in mind is that in Formal Logic, statements of the form "If S1 then S2" are considered true any time S1 is false; that is, "If S1 then S2" is interpreted as meaning "Whenever S1 is true, S2 is also true". Because of this, "If S1 then S2" is equivalent to "Either S1 is false, or S2 is true" (if S1 is false, then the statement is automatically true, because it doesn't say anything about the situation of S1 being true). And "S1 only if S2 " is also equivalent to "Either S1 is false, or S2 is true".






                              share|improve this answer













                              One way of analyzing the statements is to look at a truth table. Let's make the following definitions:



                              A := "I am in New York"

                              B := "I am in America".



                              X := "I am in New York only if I am in America"

                              Y := "If I am in New York, then I am in America"



                              If both A and B are true, then X is true. We can write that as X(TT) = T. We have X(TF) = F (If you are in New York but not in America, then the statement "I am in New York only if I am in America" must be false). X(FT) = T and X(FF) = T; X makes a statement about what has to be true when you're in New York, so if you're not in New York, then X isn't telling you anything so it can't be proven wrong.



                              If you analyze Y, you'll find that all the values are the same:

                              X(TT) = Y(TT) = T

                              X(TF) = Y(TF) = F

                              X(FT) = Y(FT) = T

                              X(FF) = Y(FF) = T



                              Since no matter the truth values of A and B, X has the same truth value as Y, X and Y are equivalent; if you have two statements such that it's not possible for one to be true and the other false, then the two statements are saying essentially the same thing.



                              One thing to keep in mind is that in Formal Logic, statements of the form "If S1 then S2" are considered true any time S1 is false; that is, "If S1 then S2" is interpreted as meaning "Whenever S1 is true, S2 is also true". Because of this, "If S1 then S2" is equivalent to "Either S1 is false, or S2 is true" (if S1 is false, then the statement is automatically true, because it doesn't say anything about the situation of S1 being true). And "S1 only if S2 " is also equivalent to "Either S1 is false, or S2 is true".







                              share|improve this answer












                              share|improve this answer



                              share|improve this answer










                              answered Apr 5 at 21:03









                              AcccumulationAcccumulation

                              842110




                              842110





















                                  2














                                  To understand this more intuitively, I think it's helpful to use formatting help and rephrase this a little, while keeping the logic the same.



                                  Start with this:




                                  “I am in New York ONLY IF I am in America”




                                  That means there is no option to be in New York without being in America. The reason why there is no other way is that "only"--it is there to indicate there are no other ways to be in New York and some other country. That's the work it does in this sentence.



                                  Now consider the second sentence you gave:




                                  "If I am in New York, then I am in America"




                                  Let's rephrase that without changing the logic at all:




                                  "If I am in New York, I MUST BE in America"




                                  What both of these are saying is that being in New York necessarily entails being in America. You can't be in New York and be any other country. In other words, you have no other option. Which is just what I showed with the first sentence.






                                  share|improve this answer





























                                    2














                                    To understand this more intuitively, I think it's helpful to use formatting help and rephrase this a little, while keeping the logic the same.



                                    Start with this:




                                    “I am in New York ONLY IF I am in America”




                                    That means there is no option to be in New York without being in America. The reason why there is no other way is that "only"--it is there to indicate there are no other ways to be in New York and some other country. That's the work it does in this sentence.



                                    Now consider the second sentence you gave:




                                    "If I am in New York, then I am in America"




                                    Let's rephrase that without changing the logic at all:




                                    "If I am in New York, I MUST BE in America"




                                    What both of these are saying is that being in New York necessarily entails being in America. You can't be in New York and be any other country. In other words, you have no other option. Which is just what I showed with the first sentence.






                                    share|improve this answer



























                                      2












                                      2








                                      2







                                      To understand this more intuitively, I think it's helpful to use formatting help and rephrase this a little, while keeping the logic the same.



                                      Start with this:




                                      “I am in New York ONLY IF I am in America”




                                      That means there is no option to be in New York without being in America. The reason why there is no other way is that "only"--it is there to indicate there are no other ways to be in New York and some other country. That's the work it does in this sentence.



                                      Now consider the second sentence you gave:




                                      "If I am in New York, then I am in America"




                                      Let's rephrase that without changing the logic at all:




                                      "If I am in New York, I MUST BE in America"




                                      What both of these are saying is that being in New York necessarily entails being in America. You can't be in New York and be any other country. In other words, you have no other option. Which is just what I showed with the first sentence.






                                      share|improve this answer















                                      To understand this more intuitively, I think it's helpful to use formatting help and rephrase this a little, while keeping the logic the same.



                                      Start with this:




                                      “I am in New York ONLY IF I am in America”




                                      That means there is no option to be in New York without being in America. The reason why there is no other way is that "only"--it is there to indicate there are no other ways to be in New York and some other country. That's the work it does in this sentence.



                                      Now consider the second sentence you gave:




                                      "If I am in New York, then I am in America"




                                      Let's rephrase that without changing the logic at all:




                                      "If I am in New York, I MUST BE in America"




                                      What both of these are saying is that being in New York necessarily entails being in America. You can't be in New York and be any other country. In other words, you have no other option. Which is just what I showed with the first sentence.







                                      share|improve this answer














                                      share|improve this answer



                                      share|improve this answer








                                      edited Apr 6 at 13:44

























                                      answered Apr 6 at 13:27









                                      ChelonianChelonian

                                      1,31439




                                      1,31439















                                          protected by Eliran Apr 6 at 13:29



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