How difficult is it to simply disable/disengage the MCAS on Boeing 737 Max 8 & 9 Aircraft?Can computer imposed inputs be overridden on the Boeing 737-MAX?Is the Boeing 737 MAX 8 MCAS exceptional in operating when autopilot is off?Does the Boeing 737 MAX use electro-hydraulic actuators?How long is the horizontal stabilizer on a Boeing 737?Is there any difference between the Boeing 787 and the 737 MAX?What is the maximum take off climb angle of a Boeing 737 MAX?Why is the 737 MAX 7 selling so poorly?How safe is the Boeing 737-800 in high winds?How unusual is the 737 MAX 8's crash history?Is the 737-900 safer than the 737 Max?Where are the grounded 737 Max planes being kept?Why is Germany not able to read data from the Boeing 737 MAX black boxes?
How is the partial sum of a geometric sequence calculated?
Fewest number of steps to reach 200 using special calculator
Geography in 3D perspective
Is honey really a supersaturated solution? Does heating to un-crystalize redissolve it or melt it?
Why are there no stars visible in cislunar space?
Turning a hard to access nut?
What (if any) is the reason to buy in small local stores?
Should I use acronyms in dialogues before telling the readers what it stands for in fiction?
What does "Four-F." mean?
Can you move over difficult terrain with only 5 feet of movement?
What exactly term 'companion plants' means?
Bash - pair each line of file
Generic TVP tradeoffs?
Is it true that good novels will automatically sell themselves on Amazon (and so on) and there is no need for one to waste time promoting?
Print a physical multiplication table
Deletion of copy-ctor & copy-assignment - public, private or protected?
Hausdorff dimension of the boundary of fibres of Lipschitz maps
I got the following comment from a reputed math journal. What does it mean?
If "dar" means "to give", what does "daros" mean?
Should I be concerned about student access to a test bank?
Asserting that Atheism and Theism are both faith based positions
Do I need to consider instance restrictions when showing a language is in P?
Can a wizard cast a spell during their first turn of combat if they initiated combat by releasing a readied spell?
Can other pieces capture a threatening piece and prevent a checkmate?
How difficult is it to simply disable/disengage the MCAS on Boeing 737 Max 8 & 9 Aircraft?
Can computer imposed inputs be overridden on the Boeing 737-MAX?Is the Boeing 737 MAX 8 MCAS exceptional in operating when autopilot is off?Does the Boeing 737 MAX use electro-hydraulic actuators?How long is the horizontal stabilizer on a Boeing 737?Is there any difference between the Boeing 787 and the 737 MAX?What is the maximum take off climb angle of a Boeing 737 MAX?Why is the 737 MAX 7 selling so poorly?How safe is the Boeing 737-800 in high winds?How unusual is the 737 MAX 8's crash history?Is the 737-900 safer than the 737 Max?Where are the grounded 737 Max planes being kept?Why is Germany not able to read data from the Boeing 737 MAX black boxes?
$begingroup$
With regard to the Ethiopian crash of the 737 Max 8 aircraft, where according to preliminary reports, it appears to be related to the MCAS which is a safety system that pushes the nose down in the even of an excessively high angle of attack (pitch attitude), how difficult is it for the pilots to simply disable the MCAS and manually fly the plane?
To clarify my question, what I'm asking is can the pilot disengage the MCAS and if so, how do they do that? Is it just flipping a switch or popping a breaker, or is it a complicated set of procedures?
safety aircraft-systems boeing-737 mcas
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
With regard to the Ethiopian crash of the 737 Max 8 aircraft, where according to preliminary reports, it appears to be related to the MCAS which is a safety system that pushes the nose down in the even of an excessively high angle of attack (pitch attitude), how difficult is it for the pilots to simply disable the MCAS and manually fly the plane?
To clarify my question, what I'm asking is can the pilot disengage the MCAS and if so, how do they do that? Is it just flipping a switch or popping a breaker, or is it a complicated set of procedures?
safety aircraft-systems boeing-737 mcas
$endgroup$
13
$begingroup$
This question could be just as answerable without bringing up the two recent 737 Max crashes at all. You might consider just editing that part out; that would go a long way toward alleviating concerns that you want speculation on an accident, rather than operational details on an airplane.
$endgroup$
– a CVn
2 days ago
13
$begingroup$
@aCVn I think context is important. Many people use this site, not all are aviation nerds, by providing context to the question it establishes why the question and answers, are relevant and important. At least, thats my opinion. :)
$endgroup$
– Devil07
2 days ago
2
$begingroup$
Related: Can computer imposed inputs be overridden on the Boeing 737-MAX?
$endgroup$
– ymb1
2 days ago
$begingroup$
While this is an interesting question, if we're considering it for practical purposes, we also ought to ask what the purpose of MCAS is and what the consequences of disabling it would be.
$endgroup$
– David K
13 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
With regard to the Ethiopian crash of the 737 Max 8 aircraft, where according to preliminary reports, it appears to be related to the MCAS which is a safety system that pushes the nose down in the even of an excessively high angle of attack (pitch attitude), how difficult is it for the pilots to simply disable the MCAS and manually fly the plane?
To clarify my question, what I'm asking is can the pilot disengage the MCAS and if so, how do they do that? Is it just flipping a switch or popping a breaker, or is it a complicated set of procedures?
safety aircraft-systems boeing-737 mcas
$endgroup$
With regard to the Ethiopian crash of the 737 Max 8 aircraft, where according to preliminary reports, it appears to be related to the MCAS which is a safety system that pushes the nose down in the even of an excessively high angle of attack (pitch attitude), how difficult is it for the pilots to simply disable the MCAS and manually fly the plane?
To clarify my question, what I'm asking is can the pilot disengage the MCAS and if so, how do they do that? Is it just flipping a switch or popping a breaker, or is it a complicated set of procedures?
safety aircraft-systems boeing-737 mcas
safety aircraft-systems boeing-737 mcas
edited 2 days ago
Devil07
asked 2 days ago
Devil07Devil07
5,7331656
5,7331656
13
$begingroup$
This question could be just as answerable without bringing up the two recent 737 Max crashes at all. You might consider just editing that part out; that would go a long way toward alleviating concerns that you want speculation on an accident, rather than operational details on an airplane.
$endgroup$
– a CVn
2 days ago
13
$begingroup$
@aCVn I think context is important. Many people use this site, not all are aviation nerds, by providing context to the question it establishes why the question and answers, are relevant and important. At least, thats my opinion. :)
$endgroup$
– Devil07
2 days ago
2
$begingroup$
Related: Can computer imposed inputs be overridden on the Boeing 737-MAX?
$endgroup$
– ymb1
2 days ago
$begingroup$
While this is an interesting question, if we're considering it for practical purposes, we also ought to ask what the purpose of MCAS is and what the consequences of disabling it would be.
$endgroup$
– David K
13 hours ago
add a comment |
13
$begingroup$
This question could be just as answerable without bringing up the two recent 737 Max crashes at all. You might consider just editing that part out; that would go a long way toward alleviating concerns that you want speculation on an accident, rather than operational details on an airplane.
$endgroup$
– a CVn
2 days ago
13
$begingroup$
@aCVn I think context is important. Many people use this site, not all are aviation nerds, by providing context to the question it establishes why the question and answers, are relevant and important. At least, thats my opinion. :)
$endgroup$
– Devil07
2 days ago
2
$begingroup$
Related: Can computer imposed inputs be overridden on the Boeing 737-MAX?
$endgroup$
– ymb1
2 days ago
$begingroup$
While this is an interesting question, if we're considering it for practical purposes, we also ought to ask what the purpose of MCAS is and what the consequences of disabling it would be.
$endgroup$
– David K
13 hours ago
13
13
$begingroup$
This question could be just as answerable without bringing up the two recent 737 Max crashes at all. You might consider just editing that part out; that would go a long way toward alleviating concerns that you want speculation on an accident, rather than operational details on an airplane.
$endgroup$
– a CVn
2 days ago
$begingroup$
This question could be just as answerable without bringing up the two recent 737 Max crashes at all. You might consider just editing that part out; that would go a long way toward alleviating concerns that you want speculation on an accident, rather than operational details on an airplane.
$endgroup$
– a CVn
2 days ago
13
13
$begingroup$
@aCVn I think context is important. Many people use this site, not all are aviation nerds, by providing context to the question it establishes why the question and answers, are relevant and important. At least, thats my opinion. :)
$endgroup$
– Devil07
2 days ago
$begingroup$
@aCVn I think context is important. Many people use this site, not all are aviation nerds, by providing context to the question it establishes why the question and answers, are relevant and important. At least, thats my opinion. :)
$endgroup$
– Devil07
2 days ago
2
2
$begingroup$
Related: Can computer imposed inputs be overridden on the Boeing 737-MAX?
$endgroup$
– ymb1
2 days ago
$begingroup$
Related: Can computer imposed inputs be overridden on the Boeing 737-MAX?
$endgroup$
– ymb1
2 days ago
$begingroup$
While this is an interesting question, if we're considering it for practical purposes, we also ought to ask what the purpose of MCAS is and what the consequences of disabling it would be.
$endgroup$
– David K
13 hours ago
$begingroup$
While this is an interesting question, if we're considering it for practical purposes, we also ought to ask what the purpose of MCAS is and what the consequences of disabling it would be.
$endgroup$
– David K
13 hours ago
add a comment |
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
MCAS doesn't have its own on/off switch
It is a fly-by-wire feature designed to account for a particular flight regime that would not (or was not expected to) be encountered very often in normal operations, and is intended to account for some of the aerodynamic effects of the LEAP-1B (CFM International) engine installation for this model. Its activation requires a number of preconditions, but we'll get to that in a moment.
A few things that should disable it (with caveats)
Lower the flaps. It is intended to work only if the flaps are up.
Turn the Stab Trim switches to OFF. This disables the horizontal stabilizer's trim completely, and reverts to manual trim (there are two guarded stabilizer trim switches in the aisle stand, see Windshear's answer). This means that the pilots must move/rotate the trim wheels in order to apply pitch trim during flight.
The manual pitch trim appears to be what a few crews did prior to the LionAir crash in October 2018. It is unclear how many of the crews knew that is was MCAS, versus any other trim or pitch anomaly. The previous LionAir crews on the accident aircraft ended up flying to their destination manually. (Original source i the Preliminary Report from that accident).
... pilots encountered problems involving the AoA as well as the pitot tube used to measure airspeed. In a flight in the same plane the day before, to Jakarta, the pilot experienced many of the same symptoms as the pilots on flight JT610: the stick shaker activated during rotation, an indicated airspeed warning alert appeared, and the aircraft began automatically pushing the aircraft nose down.
The pilot, after determining that his flight display system was malfunctioning, ran a runaway stabilizer non-normal checklist which led to the MCAS being disconnected when the stabilizer trim switches were turned off. The copilot flew the rest of the flight using manual controls and without autopilot.
That Jakarta flight was using an angle of attack sensor that had been replaced after the previous Lion Air flight to Denpasar experienced problems. snip However, it is not clear whether the pilot communicated that he ran a runaway stabilizer non-normal checklist during the flight, which might have alerted the airline’s engineering staff that there was still a problem. (source)
Enable autopilot. It is supposed to only work if the autopilot is off. But...CAVEAT
That last part is a little bit complicated: the autopilot may not stay on if it - the autopilot system - keeps getting spurious signals from the AoA sensors, or if the pitot static system is providing bad data to the FCCs.
How do you know that you need to disable MCAS?
A more apt question might be "when do you know that it's time to turn off Stab Trim switches?"
The problem for a given crew: how do you know what sub-system that is giving you trouble? The AD released in December of 2018 updated the Runaway Stabilizer procedure. Since there are other malfunctions possible in the trim system for pitch, such as a trim runaway, the same symptom may manifest during malfunctions with different causes. (See the example above). If additional symptoms are present, such as a stick shaker activating from an erroneous AoA indication or some other fault, which problem do you solve first?
Which problem are you having?
Are you having both problems, or even something else?
That concern, the relationship between different potential failure modes, gets to the heart of
What is in the pilots manuals?
What training the crews do, or do not, get on this sub-system?
The MCAS is only supposed to activate under certain conditions (in theory): high angle-of-attack, flaps-up, flight with autopilot off. This includes high angle of bank flight in such conditions.
CAVEAT
Take a look at that last bullet in the lower right of the figure. It's only partially correct. When the pilot overrides with yoke trim, MCAS will try again five seconds later (after the pilot has stopped) unless the triggering condition, or signal, goes away.
"In the event of erroneous AOA data, the pitch trim system can trim the stabilizer nose down in increments lasting up to 10 seconds," Boeing explained to operators in a bulletin issued last November, following the JT610 accident. "The nose down stabilizer trim movement can be stopped and reversed with the use of the electric stabilizer trim switches but may restart 5 sec. after the electric stabilizer trim switches are released. Repetitive cycles of uncommanded nose down
stabilizer continue to occur unless the stabilizer trim system is deactivated." (source)
It is this system behavior that is believed to have ultimately overcome the best efforts of the pilots in the LionAir crash. They were airborne for about six minutes before they were no longer able to overcome the horizontal stab position with their trim controls. (Caveat: current as of early 2019. When the final report comes out this may become a lot clearer, and may need revision).
There is an easy-to-understand video of the relationship between the jack screw and the horizontal stabilizer function here. Whenever the jack screw is moving the horizontal stab, a cockpit cue that this is occurring is the rotation of the manual trim wheels (seen at about 3:40 in the video).
Why is this activating during takeoff/departure?
That MCAS appears to activate(sometimes) during routine flight regimes is believed to be catching some crews by surprise - and not just the two accident crews. There is a recent article in Atlantic that excerpts some NASA reports by aircrews in the US about some cases of unexpected/odd pitch behavior in this model aircraft.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
is it fair to say that MCAS controls pitch through the automated Stab Trim system? So when MCAS is activated from a high AOA sensor reading, pilots will see Trim wheels spinning forward to reduce pitch?
$endgroup$
– Devil07
2 days ago
$begingroup$
@Devil07 Which line are you getting that from? For that matter, what you just asked is its own question. suggest you ask it. I am addressing the diasabling of that feature. Whatever disables the trim beyond manual control is what disables the MCAS function. Apparently, trim over ride from the yoke does not. I've seen an explanation of the details ... give me a chance to find a link.
$endgroup$
– KorvinStarmast
2 days ago
$begingroup$
@Devil07 FWIW, I have been watching the arguments about the stab trim system and this systems interaction for a few months, since Lion Air, and am leary of jumping into that briar patch.
$endgroup$
– KorvinStarmast
2 days ago
$begingroup$
you're answer is great, I'm just trying to understand how it all works together. If MCAS causes aircraft to pitch nose down when it senses excessive AOA, then doesn't it do it through use of trim? If so, when MCAS is pitching nose down, won't the trim wheels physically turn by themselves? Your graphic says "MCAS moves horizontal stabilizer trim".
$endgroup$
– Devil07
2 days ago
1
$begingroup$
To answer your question, yes, as explained in this video
$endgroup$
– KorvinStarmast
yesterday
|
show 3 more comments
$begingroup$
You can disable the stabaliser trim which will prevent MCAS from making inputs to the aircraft.
New contributor
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
This is what I was thinking. If MCAS is pitching nose forward through use of stab trim, then the trim wheel will be visibly spinning forward (or will it?), if it is, then disable it and take manual control of trim.
$endgroup$
– Devil07
2 days ago
2
$begingroup$
Yes, the trim wheels will spin in case MCAS sends input. By disabling the stab trim, inputs to it by any system will be disabled.
$endgroup$
– Windshear
2 days ago
1
$begingroup$
that what I thought. Good answer and great picture!
$endgroup$
– Devil07
23 hours ago
$begingroup$
(stabaliser → stabiliser)
$endgroup$
– Peter Mortensen
18 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
From what I have read, the other answers explain the cutout procedure correctly. It is also important to keep in mind Korvin's remark that trim anomalies can occur for a variety of reasons. What I have not seen mentioned often or clearly enough is a crucial difference that distinguishes MCAS from regular trim control, a difference which was apparently not communicated clearly enough to the pilots. As an article by Leeham news points out:
[MCAS is] not stopped by the Pilot pulling the Yoke, which for normal trim from the autopilot or runaway manual trim triggers trim hold sensors.1
It is easy to imagine that pilots who have hopefully practiced emergency situations, like trim runaway during ascent, are puzzled and lost when the ingrained procedures do not work. From the NASA incident reports published in the Atlantic it becomes clear that the FAA advisory after the LionAir crash was discussed among the pilots. Apparently there were a few incidents where performing the proper cutout procedure saved the airplanes, among them the preceding LionAir flight.
1The reason for this design decision being that providing the pilot a way to easily override
would negate why MCAS was implemented, the Pilot pulling so hard on the Yoke that the aircraft is flying close to stall
In other words, MCAS is a mechanism to correct an already present pilot error by hard overriding, so the pilot is not given the last word s/he has in most other situations, or at least only after a few button switches which are specially protected. It's also worth mentioning that even extreme yoke action, working on the elevators only, is not able to fully compensate extreme stabilizer positions, the control surfaces MCAS uses (apart from, I suppose, creating unpleasant flight characteristics).
$endgroup$
add a comment |
Your Answer
StackExchange.ifUsing("editor", function ()
return StackExchange.using("mathjaxEditing", function ()
StackExchange.MarkdownEditor.creationCallbacks.add(function (editor, postfix)
StackExchange.mathjaxEditing.prepareWmdForMathJax(editor, postfix, [["$", "$"], ["\\(","\\)"]]);
);
);
, "mathjax-editing");
StackExchange.ready(function()
var channelOptions =
tags: "".split(" "),
id: "528"
;
initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);
StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function()
// Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled)
StackExchange.using("snippets", function()
createEditor();
);
else
createEditor();
);
function createEditor()
StackExchange.prepareEditor(
heartbeatType: 'answer',
autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
convertImagesToLinks: false,
noModals: true,
showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
reputationToPostImages: null,
bindNavPrevention: true,
postfix: "",
imageUploader:
brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
allowUrls: true
,
noCode: true, onDemand: true,
discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
);
);
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function ()
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2faviation.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f61203%2fhow-difficult-is-it-to-simply-disable-disengage-the-mcas-on-boeing-737-max-8-9%23new-answer', 'question_page');
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
MCAS doesn't have its own on/off switch
It is a fly-by-wire feature designed to account for a particular flight regime that would not (or was not expected to) be encountered very often in normal operations, and is intended to account for some of the aerodynamic effects of the LEAP-1B (CFM International) engine installation for this model. Its activation requires a number of preconditions, but we'll get to that in a moment.
A few things that should disable it (with caveats)
Lower the flaps. It is intended to work only if the flaps are up.
Turn the Stab Trim switches to OFF. This disables the horizontal stabilizer's trim completely, and reverts to manual trim (there are two guarded stabilizer trim switches in the aisle stand, see Windshear's answer). This means that the pilots must move/rotate the trim wheels in order to apply pitch trim during flight.
The manual pitch trim appears to be what a few crews did prior to the LionAir crash in October 2018. It is unclear how many of the crews knew that is was MCAS, versus any other trim or pitch anomaly. The previous LionAir crews on the accident aircraft ended up flying to their destination manually. (Original source i the Preliminary Report from that accident).
... pilots encountered problems involving the AoA as well as the pitot tube used to measure airspeed. In a flight in the same plane the day before, to Jakarta, the pilot experienced many of the same symptoms as the pilots on flight JT610: the stick shaker activated during rotation, an indicated airspeed warning alert appeared, and the aircraft began automatically pushing the aircraft nose down.
The pilot, after determining that his flight display system was malfunctioning, ran a runaway stabilizer non-normal checklist which led to the MCAS being disconnected when the stabilizer trim switches were turned off. The copilot flew the rest of the flight using manual controls and without autopilot.
That Jakarta flight was using an angle of attack sensor that had been replaced after the previous Lion Air flight to Denpasar experienced problems. snip However, it is not clear whether the pilot communicated that he ran a runaway stabilizer non-normal checklist during the flight, which might have alerted the airline’s engineering staff that there was still a problem. (source)
Enable autopilot. It is supposed to only work if the autopilot is off. But...CAVEAT
That last part is a little bit complicated: the autopilot may not stay on if it - the autopilot system - keeps getting spurious signals from the AoA sensors, or if the pitot static system is providing bad data to the FCCs.
How do you know that you need to disable MCAS?
A more apt question might be "when do you know that it's time to turn off Stab Trim switches?"
The problem for a given crew: how do you know what sub-system that is giving you trouble? The AD released in December of 2018 updated the Runaway Stabilizer procedure. Since there are other malfunctions possible in the trim system for pitch, such as a trim runaway, the same symptom may manifest during malfunctions with different causes. (See the example above). If additional symptoms are present, such as a stick shaker activating from an erroneous AoA indication or some other fault, which problem do you solve first?
Which problem are you having?
Are you having both problems, or even something else?
That concern, the relationship between different potential failure modes, gets to the heart of
What is in the pilots manuals?
What training the crews do, or do not, get on this sub-system?
The MCAS is only supposed to activate under certain conditions (in theory): high angle-of-attack, flaps-up, flight with autopilot off. This includes high angle of bank flight in such conditions.
CAVEAT
Take a look at that last bullet in the lower right of the figure. It's only partially correct. When the pilot overrides with yoke trim, MCAS will try again five seconds later (after the pilot has stopped) unless the triggering condition, or signal, goes away.
"In the event of erroneous AOA data, the pitch trim system can trim the stabilizer nose down in increments lasting up to 10 seconds," Boeing explained to operators in a bulletin issued last November, following the JT610 accident. "The nose down stabilizer trim movement can be stopped and reversed with the use of the electric stabilizer trim switches but may restart 5 sec. after the electric stabilizer trim switches are released. Repetitive cycles of uncommanded nose down
stabilizer continue to occur unless the stabilizer trim system is deactivated." (source)
It is this system behavior that is believed to have ultimately overcome the best efforts of the pilots in the LionAir crash. They were airborne for about six minutes before they were no longer able to overcome the horizontal stab position with their trim controls. (Caveat: current as of early 2019. When the final report comes out this may become a lot clearer, and may need revision).
There is an easy-to-understand video of the relationship between the jack screw and the horizontal stabilizer function here. Whenever the jack screw is moving the horizontal stab, a cockpit cue that this is occurring is the rotation of the manual trim wheels (seen at about 3:40 in the video).
Why is this activating during takeoff/departure?
That MCAS appears to activate(sometimes) during routine flight regimes is believed to be catching some crews by surprise - and not just the two accident crews. There is a recent article in Atlantic that excerpts some NASA reports by aircrews in the US about some cases of unexpected/odd pitch behavior in this model aircraft.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
is it fair to say that MCAS controls pitch through the automated Stab Trim system? So when MCAS is activated from a high AOA sensor reading, pilots will see Trim wheels spinning forward to reduce pitch?
$endgroup$
– Devil07
2 days ago
$begingroup$
@Devil07 Which line are you getting that from? For that matter, what you just asked is its own question. suggest you ask it. I am addressing the diasabling of that feature. Whatever disables the trim beyond manual control is what disables the MCAS function. Apparently, trim over ride from the yoke does not. I've seen an explanation of the details ... give me a chance to find a link.
$endgroup$
– KorvinStarmast
2 days ago
$begingroup$
@Devil07 FWIW, I have been watching the arguments about the stab trim system and this systems interaction for a few months, since Lion Air, and am leary of jumping into that briar patch.
$endgroup$
– KorvinStarmast
2 days ago
$begingroup$
you're answer is great, I'm just trying to understand how it all works together. If MCAS causes aircraft to pitch nose down when it senses excessive AOA, then doesn't it do it through use of trim? If so, when MCAS is pitching nose down, won't the trim wheels physically turn by themselves? Your graphic says "MCAS moves horizontal stabilizer trim".
$endgroup$
– Devil07
2 days ago
1
$begingroup$
To answer your question, yes, as explained in this video
$endgroup$
– KorvinStarmast
yesterday
|
show 3 more comments
$begingroup$
MCAS doesn't have its own on/off switch
It is a fly-by-wire feature designed to account for a particular flight regime that would not (or was not expected to) be encountered very often in normal operations, and is intended to account for some of the aerodynamic effects of the LEAP-1B (CFM International) engine installation for this model. Its activation requires a number of preconditions, but we'll get to that in a moment.
A few things that should disable it (with caveats)
Lower the flaps. It is intended to work only if the flaps are up.
Turn the Stab Trim switches to OFF. This disables the horizontal stabilizer's trim completely, and reverts to manual trim (there are two guarded stabilizer trim switches in the aisle stand, see Windshear's answer). This means that the pilots must move/rotate the trim wheels in order to apply pitch trim during flight.
The manual pitch trim appears to be what a few crews did prior to the LionAir crash in October 2018. It is unclear how many of the crews knew that is was MCAS, versus any other trim or pitch anomaly. The previous LionAir crews on the accident aircraft ended up flying to their destination manually. (Original source i the Preliminary Report from that accident).
... pilots encountered problems involving the AoA as well as the pitot tube used to measure airspeed. In a flight in the same plane the day before, to Jakarta, the pilot experienced many of the same symptoms as the pilots on flight JT610: the stick shaker activated during rotation, an indicated airspeed warning alert appeared, and the aircraft began automatically pushing the aircraft nose down.
The pilot, after determining that his flight display system was malfunctioning, ran a runaway stabilizer non-normal checklist which led to the MCAS being disconnected when the stabilizer trim switches were turned off. The copilot flew the rest of the flight using manual controls and without autopilot.
That Jakarta flight was using an angle of attack sensor that had been replaced after the previous Lion Air flight to Denpasar experienced problems. snip However, it is not clear whether the pilot communicated that he ran a runaway stabilizer non-normal checklist during the flight, which might have alerted the airline’s engineering staff that there was still a problem. (source)
Enable autopilot. It is supposed to only work if the autopilot is off. But...CAVEAT
That last part is a little bit complicated: the autopilot may not stay on if it - the autopilot system - keeps getting spurious signals from the AoA sensors, or if the pitot static system is providing bad data to the FCCs.
How do you know that you need to disable MCAS?
A more apt question might be "when do you know that it's time to turn off Stab Trim switches?"
The problem for a given crew: how do you know what sub-system that is giving you trouble? The AD released in December of 2018 updated the Runaway Stabilizer procedure. Since there are other malfunctions possible in the trim system for pitch, such as a trim runaway, the same symptom may manifest during malfunctions with different causes. (See the example above). If additional symptoms are present, such as a stick shaker activating from an erroneous AoA indication or some other fault, which problem do you solve first?
Which problem are you having?
Are you having both problems, or even something else?
That concern, the relationship between different potential failure modes, gets to the heart of
What is in the pilots manuals?
What training the crews do, or do not, get on this sub-system?
The MCAS is only supposed to activate under certain conditions (in theory): high angle-of-attack, flaps-up, flight with autopilot off. This includes high angle of bank flight in such conditions.
CAVEAT
Take a look at that last bullet in the lower right of the figure. It's only partially correct. When the pilot overrides with yoke trim, MCAS will try again five seconds later (after the pilot has stopped) unless the triggering condition, or signal, goes away.
"In the event of erroneous AOA data, the pitch trim system can trim the stabilizer nose down in increments lasting up to 10 seconds," Boeing explained to operators in a bulletin issued last November, following the JT610 accident. "The nose down stabilizer trim movement can be stopped and reversed with the use of the electric stabilizer trim switches but may restart 5 sec. after the electric stabilizer trim switches are released. Repetitive cycles of uncommanded nose down
stabilizer continue to occur unless the stabilizer trim system is deactivated." (source)
It is this system behavior that is believed to have ultimately overcome the best efforts of the pilots in the LionAir crash. They were airborne for about six minutes before they were no longer able to overcome the horizontal stab position with their trim controls. (Caveat: current as of early 2019. When the final report comes out this may become a lot clearer, and may need revision).
There is an easy-to-understand video of the relationship between the jack screw and the horizontal stabilizer function here. Whenever the jack screw is moving the horizontal stab, a cockpit cue that this is occurring is the rotation of the manual trim wheels (seen at about 3:40 in the video).
Why is this activating during takeoff/departure?
That MCAS appears to activate(sometimes) during routine flight regimes is believed to be catching some crews by surprise - and not just the two accident crews. There is a recent article in Atlantic that excerpts some NASA reports by aircrews in the US about some cases of unexpected/odd pitch behavior in this model aircraft.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
is it fair to say that MCAS controls pitch through the automated Stab Trim system? So when MCAS is activated from a high AOA sensor reading, pilots will see Trim wheels spinning forward to reduce pitch?
$endgroup$
– Devil07
2 days ago
$begingroup$
@Devil07 Which line are you getting that from? For that matter, what you just asked is its own question. suggest you ask it. I am addressing the diasabling of that feature. Whatever disables the trim beyond manual control is what disables the MCAS function. Apparently, trim over ride from the yoke does not. I've seen an explanation of the details ... give me a chance to find a link.
$endgroup$
– KorvinStarmast
2 days ago
$begingroup$
@Devil07 FWIW, I have been watching the arguments about the stab trim system and this systems interaction for a few months, since Lion Air, and am leary of jumping into that briar patch.
$endgroup$
– KorvinStarmast
2 days ago
$begingroup$
you're answer is great, I'm just trying to understand how it all works together. If MCAS causes aircraft to pitch nose down when it senses excessive AOA, then doesn't it do it through use of trim? If so, when MCAS is pitching nose down, won't the trim wheels physically turn by themselves? Your graphic says "MCAS moves horizontal stabilizer trim".
$endgroup$
– Devil07
2 days ago
1
$begingroup$
To answer your question, yes, as explained in this video
$endgroup$
– KorvinStarmast
yesterday
|
show 3 more comments
$begingroup$
MCAS doesn't have its own on/off switch
It is a fly-by-wire feature designed to account for a particular flight regime that would not (or was not expected to) be encountered very often in normal operations, and is intended to account for some of the aerodynamic effects of the LEAP-1B (CFM International) engine installation for this model. Its activation requires a number of preconditions, but we'll get to that in a moment.
A few things that should disable it (with caveats)
Lower the flaps. It is intended to work only if the flaps are up.
Turn the Stab Trim switches to OFF. This disables the horizontal stabilizer's trim completely, and reverts to manual trim (there are two guarded stabilizer trim switches in the aisle stand, see Windshear's answer). This means that the pilots must move/rotate the trim wheels in order to apply pitch trim during flight.
The manual pitch trim appears to be what a few crews did prior to the LionAir crash in October 2018. It is unclear how many of the crews knew that is was MCAS, versus any other trim or pitch anomaly. The previous LionAir crews on the accident aircraft ended up flying to their destination manually. (Original source i the Preliminary Report from that accident).
... pilots encountered problems involving the AoA as well as the pitot tube used to measure airspeed. In a flight in the same plane the day before, to Jakarta, the pilot experienced many of the same symptoms as the pilots on flight JT610: the stick shaker activated during rotation, an indicated airspeed warning alert appeared, and the aircraft began automatically pushing the aircraft nose down.
The pilot, after determining that his flight display system was malfunctioning, ran a runaway stabilizer non-normal checklist which led to the MCAS being disconnected when the stabilizer trim switches were turned off. The copilot flew the rest of the flight using manual controls and without autopilot.
That Jakarta flight was using an angle of attack sensor that had been replaced after the previous Lion Air flight to Denpasar experienced problems. snip However, it is not clear whether the pilot communicated that he ran a runaway stabilizer non-normal checklist during the flight, which might have alerted the airline’s engineering staff that there was still a problem. (source)
Enable autopilot. It is supposed to only work if the autopilot is off. But...CAVEAT
That last part is a little bit complicated: the autopilot may not stay on if it - the autopilot system - keeps getting spurious signals from the AoA sensors, or if the pitot static system is providing bad data to the FCCs.
How do you know that you need to disable MCAS?
A more apt question might be "when do you know that it's time to turn off Stab Trim switches?"
The problem for a given crew: how do you know what sub-system that is giving you trouble? The AD released in December of 2018 updated the Runaway Stabilizer procedure. Since there are other malfunctions possible in the trim system for pitch, such as a trim runaway, the same symptom may manifest during malfunctions with different causes. (See the example above). If additional symptoms are present, such as a stick shaker activating from an erroneous AoA indication or some other fault, which problem do you solve first?
Which problem are you having?
Are you having both problems, or even something else?
That concern, the relationship between different potential failure modes, gets to the heart of
What is in the pilots manuals?
What training the crews do, or do not, get on this sub-system?
The MCAS is only supposed to activate under certain conditions (in theory): high angle-of-attack, flaps-up, flight with autopilot off. This includes high angle of bank flight in such conditions.
CAVEAT
Take a look at that last bullet in the lower right of the figure. It's only partially correct. When the pilot overrides with yoke trim, MCAS will try again five seconds later (after the pilot has stopped) unless the triggering condition, or signal, goes away.
"In the event of erroneous AOA data, the pitch trim system can trim the stabilizer nose down in increments lasting up to 10 seconds," Boeing explained to operators in a bulletin issued last November, following the JT610 accident. "The nose down stabilizer trim movement can be stopped and reversed with the use of the electric stabilizer trim switches but may restart 5 sec. after the electric stabilizer trim switches are released. Repetitive cycles of uncommanded nose down
stabilizer continue to occur unless the stabilizer trim system is deactivated." (source)
It is this system behavior that is believed to have ultimately overcome the best efforts of the pilots in the LionAir crash. They were airborne for about six minutes before they were no longer able to overcome the horizontal stab position with their trim controls. (Caveat: current as of early 2019. When the final report comes out this may become a lot clearer, and may need revision).
There is an easy-to-understand video of the relationship between the jack screw and the horizontal stabilizer function here. Whenever the jack screw is moving the horizontal stab, a cockpit cue that this is occurring is the rotation of the manual trim wheels (seen at about 3:40 in the video).
Why is this activating during takeoff/departure?
That MCAS appears to activate(sometimes) during routine flight regimes is believed to be catching some crews by surprise - and not just the two accident crews. There is a recent article in Atlantic that excerpts some NASA reports by aircrews in the US about some cases of unexpected/odd pitch behavior in this model aircraft.
$endgroup$
MCAS doesn't have its own on/off switch
It is a fly-by-wire feature designed to account for a particular flight regime that would not (or was not expected to) be encountered very often in normal operations, and is intended to account for some of the aerodynamic effects of the LEAP-1B (CFM International) engine installation for this model. Its activation requires a number of preconditions, but we'll get to that in a moment.
A few things that should disable it (with caveats)
Lower the flaps. It is intended to work only if the flaps are up.
Turn the Stab Trim switches to OFF. This disables the horizontal stabilizer's trim completely, and reverts to manual trim (there are two guarded stabilizer trim switches in the aisle stand, see Windshear's answer). This means that the pilots must move/rotate the trim wheels in order to apply pitch trim during flight.
The manual pitch trim appears to be what a few crews did prior to the LionAir crash in October 2018. It is unclear how many of the crews knew that is was MCAS, versus any other trim or pitch anomaly. The previous LionAir crews on the accident aircraft ended up flying to their destination manually. (Original source i the Preliminary Report from that accident).
... pilots encountered problems involving the AoA as well as the pitot tube used to measure airspeed. In a flight in the same plane the day before, to Jakarta, the pilot experienced many of the same symptoms as the pilots on flight JT610: the stick shaker activated during rotation, an indicated airspeed warning alert appeared, and the aircraft began automatically pushing the aircraft nose down.
The pilot, after determining that his flight display system was malfunctioning, ran a runaway stabilizer non-normal checklist which led to the MCAS being disconnected when the stabilizer trim switches were turned off. The copilot flew the rest of the flight using manual controls and without autopilot.
That Jakarta flight was using an angle of attack sensor that had been replaced after the previous Lion Air flight to Denpasar experienced problems. snip However, it is not clear whether the pilot communicated that he ran a runaway stabilizer non-normal checklist during the flight, which might have alerted the airline’s engineering staff that there was still a problem. (source)
Enable autopilot. It is supposed to only work if the autopilot is off. But...CAVEAT
That last part is a little bit complicated: the autopilot may not stay on if it - the autopilot system - keeps getting spurious signals from the AoA sensors, or if the pitot static system is providing bad data to the FCCs.
How do you know that you need to disable MCAS?
A more apt question might be "when do you know that it's time to turn off Stab Trim switches?"
The problem for a given crew: how do you know what sub-system that is giving you trouble? The AD released in December of 2018 updated the Runaway Stabilizer procedure. Since there are other malfunctions possible in the trim system for pitch, such as a trim runaway, the same symptom may manifest during malfunctions with different causes. (See the example above). If additional symptoms are present, such as a stick shaker activating from an erroneous AoA indication or some other fault, which problem do you solve first?
Which problem are you having?
Are you having both problems, or even something else?
That concern, the relationship between different potential failure modes, gets to the heart of
What is in the pilots manuals?
What training the crews do, or do not, get on this sub-system?
The MCAS is only supposed to activate under certain conditions (in theory): high angle-of-attack, flaps-up, flight with autopilot off. This includes high angle of bank flight in such conditions.
CAVEAT
Take a look at that last bullet in the lower right of the figure. It's only partially correct. When the pilot overrides with yoke trim, MCAS will try again five seconds later (after the pilot has stopped) unless the triggering condition, or signal, goes away.
"In the event of erroneous AOA data, the pitch trim system can trim the stabilizer nose down in increments lasting up to 10 seconds," Boeing explained to operators in a bulletin issued last November, following the JT610 accident. "The nose down stabilizer trim movement can be stopped and reversed with the use of the electric stabilizer trim switches but may restart 5 sec. after the electric stabilizer trim switches are released. Repetitive cycles of uncommanded nose down
stabilizer continue to occur unless the stabilizer trim system is deactivated." (source)
It is this system behavior that is believed to have ultimately overcome the best efforts of the pilots in the LionAir crash. They were airborne for about six minutes before they were no longer able to overcome the horizontal stab position with their trim controls. (Caveat: current as of early 2019. When the final report comes out this may become a lot clearer, and may need revision).
There is an easy-to-understand video of the relationship between the jack screw and the horizontal stabilizer function here. Whenever the jack screw is moving the horizontal stab, a cockpit cue that this is occurring is the rotation of the manual trim wheels (seen at about 3:40 in the video).
Why is this activating during takeoff/departure?
That MCAS appears to activate(sometimes) during routine flight regimes is believed to be catching some crews by surprise - and not just the two accident crews. There is a recent article in Atlantic that excerpts some NASA reports by aircrews in the US about some cases of unexpected/odd pitch behavior in this model aircraft.
edited 11 hours ago
answered 2 days ago
KorvinStarmastKorvinStarmast
3,0691330
3,0691330
$begingroup$
is it fair to say that MCAS controls pitch through the automated Stab Trim system? So when MCAS is activated from a high AOA sensor reading, pilots will see Trim wheels spinning forward to reduce pitch?
$endgroup$
– Devil07
2 days ago
$begingroup$
@Devil07 Which line are you getting that from? For that matter, what you just asked is its own question. suggest you ask it. I am addressing the diasabling of that feature. Whatever disables the trim beyond manual control is what disables the MCAS function. Apparently, trim over ride from the yoke does not. I've seen an explanation of the details ... give me a chance to find a link.
$endgroup$
– KorvinStarmast
2 days ago
$begingroup$
@Devil07 FWIW, I have been watching the arguments about the stab trim system and this systems interaction for a few months, since Lion Air, and am leary of jumping into that briar patch.
$endgroup$
– KorvinStarmast
2 days ago
$begingroup$
you're answer is great, I'm just trying to understand how it all works together. If MCAS causes aircraft to pitch nose down when it senses excessive AOA, then doesn't it do it through use of trim? If so, when MCAS is pitching nose down, won't the trim wheels physically turn by themselves? Your graphic says "MCAS moves horizontal stabilizer trim".
$endgroup$
– Devil07
2 days ago
1
$begingroup$
To answer your question, yes, as explained in this video
$endgroup$
– KorvinStarmast
yesterday
|
show 3 more comments
$begingroup$
is it fair to say that MCAS controls pitch through the automated Stab Trim system? So when MCAS is activated from a high AOA sensor reading, pilots will see Trim wheels spinning forward to reduce pitch?
$endgroup$
– Devil07
2 days ago
$begingroup$
@Devil07 Which line are you getting that from? For that matter, what you just asked is its own question. suggest you ask it. I am addressing the diasabling of that feature. Whatever disables the trim beyond manual control is what disables the MCAS function. Apparently, trim over ride from the yoke does not. I've seen an explanation of the details ... give me a chance to find a link.
$endgroup$
– KorvinStarmast
2 days ago
$begingroup$
@Devil07 FWIW, I have been watching the arguments about the stab trim system and this systems interaction for a few months, since Lion Air, and am leary of jumping into that briar patch.
$endgroup$
– KorvinStarmast
2 days ago
$begingroup$
you're answer is great, I'm just trying to understand how it all works together. If MCAS causes aircraft to pitch nose down when it senses excessive AOA, then doesn't it do it through use of trim? If so, when MCAS is pitching nose down, won't the trim wheels physically turn by themselves? Your graphic says "MCAS moves horizontal stabilizer trim".
$endgroup$
– Devil07
2 days ago
1
$begingroup$
To answer your question, yes, as explained in this video
$endgroup$
– KorvinStarmast
yesterday
$begingroup$
is it fair to say that MCAS controls pitch through the automated Stab Trim system? So when MCAS is activated from a high AOA sensor reading, pilots will see Trim wheels spinning forward to reduce pitch?
$endgroup$
– Devil07
2 days ago
$begingroup$
is it fair to say that MCAS controls pitch through the automated Stab Trim system? So when MCAS is activated from a high AOA sensor reading, pilots will see Trim wheels spinning forward to reduce pitch?
$endgroup$
– Devil07
2 days ago
$begingroup$
@Devil07 Which line are you getting that from? For that matter, what you just asked is its own question. suggest you ask it. I am addressing the diasabling of that feature. Whatever disables the trim beyond manual control is what disables the MCAS function. Apparently, trim over ride from the yoke does not. I've seen an explanation of the details ... give me a chance to find a link.
$endgroup$
– KorvinStarmast
2 days ago
$begingroup$
@Devil07 Which line are you getting that from? For that matter, what you just asked is its own question. suggest you ask it. I am addressing the diasabling of that feature. Whatever disables the trim beyond manual control is what disables the MCAS function. Apparently, trim over ride from the yoke does not. I've seen an explanation of the details ... give me a chance to find a link.
$endgroup$
– KorvinStarmast
2 days ago
$begingroup$
@Devil07 FWIW, I have been watching the arguments about the stab trim system and this systems interaction for a few months, since Lion Air, and am leary of jumping into that briar patch.
$endgroup$
– KorvinStarmast
2 days ago
$begingroup$
@Devil07 FWIW, I have been watching the arguments about the stab trim system and this systems interaction for a few months, since Lion Air, and am leary of jumping into that briar patch.
$endgroup$
– KorvinStarmast
2 days ago
$begingroup$
you're answer is great, I'm just trying to understand how it all works together. If MCAS causes aircraft to pitch nose down when it senses excessive AOA, then doesn't it do it through use of trim? If so, when MCAS is pitching nose down, won't the trim wheels physically turn by themselves? Your graphic says "MCAS moves horizontal stabilizer trim".
$endgroup$
– Devil07
2 days ago
$begingroup$
you're answer is great, I'm just trying to understand how it all works together. If MCAS causes aircraft to pitch nose down when it senses excessive AOA, then doesn't it do it through use of trim? If so, when MCAS is pitching nose down, won't the trim wheels physically turn by themselves? Your graphic says "MCAS moves horizontal stabilizer trim".
$endgroup$
– Devil07
2 days ago
1
1
$begingroup$
To answer your question, yes, as explained in this video
$endgroup$
– KorvinStarmast
yesterday
$begingroup$
To answer your question, yes, as explained in this video
$endgroup$
– KorvinStarmast
yesterday
|
show 3 more comments
$begingroup$
You can disable the stabaliser trim which will prevent MCAS from making inputs to the aircraft.
New contributor
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
This is what I was thinking. If MCAS is pitching nose forward through use of stab trim, then the trim wheel will be visibly spinning forward (or will it?), if it is, then disable it and take manual control of trim.
$endgroup$
– Devil07
2 days ago
2
$begingroup$
Yes, the trim wheels will spin in case MCAS sends input. By disabling the stab trim, inputs to it by any system will be disabled.
$endgroup$
– Windshear
2 days ago
1
$begingroup$
that what I thought. Good answer and great picture!
$endgroup$
– Devil07
23 hours ago
$begingroup$
(stabaliser → stabiliser)
$endgroup$
– Peter Mortensen
18 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
You can disable the stabaliser trim which will prevent MCAS from making inputs to the aircraft.
New contributor
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
This is what I was thinking. If MCAS is pitching nose forward through use of stab trim, then the trim wheel will be visibly spinning forward (or will it?), if it is, then disable it and take manual control of trim.
$endgroup$
– Devil07
2 days ago
2
$begingroup$
Yes, the trim wheels will spin in case MCAS sends input. By disabling the stab trim, inputs to it by any system will be disabled.
$endgroup$
– Windshear
2 days ago
1
$begingroup$
that what I thought. Good answer and great picture!
$endgroup$
– Devil07
23 hours ago
$begingroup$
(stabaliser → stabiliser)
$endgroup$
– Peter Mortensen
18 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
You can disable the stabaliser trim which will prevent MCAS from making inputs to the aircraft.
New contributor
$endgroup$
You can disable the stabaliser trim which will prevent MCAS from making inputs to the aircraft.
New contributor
New contributor
answered 2 days ago
WindshearWindshear
1213
1213
New contributor
New contributor
1
$begingroup$
This is what I was thinking. If MCAS is pitching nose forward through use of stab trim, then the trim wheel will be visibly spinning forward (or will it?), if it is, then disable it and take manual control of trim.
$endgroup$
– Devil07
2 days ago
2
$begingroup$
Yes, the trim wheels will spin in case MCAS sends input. By disabling the stab trim, inputs to it by any system will be disabled.
$endgroup$
– Windshear
2 days ago
1
$begingroup$
that what I thought. Good answer and great picture!
$endgroup$
– Devil07
23 hours ago
$begingroup$
(stabaliser → stabiliser)
$endgroup$
– Peter Mortensen
18 hours ago
add a comment |
1
$begingroup$
This is what I was thinking. If MCAS is pitching nose forward through use of stab trim, then the trim wheel will be visibly spinning forward (or will it?), if it is, then disable it and take manual control of trim.
$endgroup$
– Devil07
2 days ago
2
$begingroup$
Yes, the trim wheels will spin in case MCAS sends input. By disabling the stab trim, inputs to it by any system will be disabled.
$endgroup$
– Windshear
2 days ago
1
$begingroup$
that what I thought. Good answer and great picture!
$endgroup$
– Devil07
23 hours ago
$begingroup$
(stabaliser → stabiliser)
$endgroup$
– Peter Mortensen
18 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
This is what I was thinking. If MCAS is pitching nose forward through use of stab trim, then the trim wheel will be visibly spinning forward (or will it?), if it is, then disable it and take manual control of trim.
$endgroup$
– Devil07
2 days ago
$begingroup$
This is what I was thinking. If MCAS is pitching nose forward through use of stab trim, then the trim wheel will be visibly spinning forward (or will it?), if it is, then disable it and take manual control of trim.
$endgroup$
– Devil07
2 days ago
2
2
$begingroup$
Yes, the trim wheels will spin in case MCAS sends input. By disabling the stab trim, inputs to it by any system will be disabled.
$endgroup$
– Windshear
2 days ago
$begingroup$
Yes, the trim wheels will spin in case MCAS sends input. By disabling the stab trim, inputs to it by any system will be disabled.
$endgroup$
– Windshear
2 days ago
1
1
$begingroup$
that what I thought. Good answer and great picture!
$endgroup$
– Devil07
23 hours ago
$begingroup$
that what I thought. Good answer and great picture!
$endgroup$
– Devil07
23 hours ago
$begingroup$
(stabaliser → stabiliser)
$endgroup$
– Peter Mortensen
18 hours ago
$begingroup$
(stabaliser → stabiliser)
$endgroup$
– Peter Mortensen
18 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
From what I have read, the other answers explain the cutout procedure correctly. It is also important to keep in mind Korvin's remark that trim anomalies can occur for a variety of reasons. What I have not seen mentioned often or clearly enough is a crucial difference that distinguishes MCAS from regular trim control, a difference which was apparently not communicated clearly enough to the pilots. As an article by Leeham news points out:
[MCAS is] not stopped by the Pilot pulling the Yoke, which for normal trim from the autopilot or runaway manual trim triggers trim hold sensors.1
It is easy to imagine that pilots who have hopefully practiced emergency situations, like trim runaway during ascent, are puzzled and lost when the ingrained procedures do not work. From the NASA incident reports published in the Atlantic it becomes clear that the FAA advisory after the LionAir crash was discussed among the pilots. Apparently there were a few incidents where performing the proper cutout procedure saved the airplanes, among them the preceding LionAir flight.
1The reason for this design decision being that providing the pilot a way to easily override
would negate why MCAS was implemented, the Pilot pulling so hard on the Yoke that the aircraft is flying close to stall
In other words, MCAS is a mechanism to correct an already present pilot error by hard overriding, so the pilot is not given the last word s/he has in most other situations, or at least only after a few button switches which are specially protected. It's also worth mentioning that even extreme yoke action, working on the elevators only, is not able to fully compensate extreme stabilizer positions, the control surfaces MCAS uses (apart from, I suppose, creating unpleasant flight characteristics).
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
From what I have read, the other answers explain the cutout procedure correctly. It is also important to keep in mind Korvin's remark that trim anomalies can occur for a variety of reasons. What I have not seen mentioned often or clearly enough is a crucial difference that distinguishes MCAS from regular trim control, a difference which was apparently not communicated clearly enough to the pilots. As an article by Leeham news points out:
[MCAS is] not stopped by the Pilot pulling the Yoke, which for normal trim from the autopilot or runaway manual trim triggers trim hold sensors.1
It is easy to imagine that pilots who have hopefully practiced emergency situations, like trim runaway during ascent, are puzzled and lost when the ingrained procedures do not work. From the NASA incident reports published in the Atlantic it becomes clear that the FAA advisory after the LionAir crash was discussed among the pilots. Apparently there were a few incidents where performing the proper cutout procedure saved the airplanes, among them the preceding LionAir flight.
1The reason for this design decision being that providing the pilot a way to easily override
would negate why MCAS was implemented, the Pilot pulling so hard on the Yoke that the aircraft is flying close to stall
In other words, MCAS is a mechanism to correct an already present pilot error by hard overriding, so the pilot is not given the last word s/he has in most other situations, or at least only after a few button switches which are specially protected. It's also worth mentioning that even extreme yoke action, working on the elevators only, is not able to fully compensate extreme stabilizer positions, the control surfaces MCAS uses (apart from, I suppose, creating unpleasant flight characteristics).
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
From what I have read, the other answers explain the cutout procedure correctly. It is also important to keep in mind Korvin's remark that trim anomalies can occur for a variety of reasons. What I have not seen mentioned often or clearly enough is a crucial difference that distinguishes MCAS from regular trim control, a difference which was apparently not communicated clearly enough to the pilots. As an article by Leeham news points out:
[MCAS is] not stopped by the Pilot pulling the Yoke, which for normal trim from the autopilot or runaway manual trim triggers trim hold sensors.1
It is easy to imagine that pilots who have hopefully practiced emergency situations, like trim runaway during ascent, are puzzled and lost when the ingrained procedures do not work. From the NASA incident reports published in the Atlantic it becomes clear that the FAA advisory after the LionAir crash was discussed among the pilots. Apparently there were a few incidents where performing the proper cutout procedure saved the airplanes, among them the preceding LionAir flight.
1The reason for this design decision being that providing the pilot a way to easily override
would negate why MCAS was implemented, the Pilot pulling so hard on the Yoke that the aircraft is flying close to stall
In other words, MCAS is a mechanism to correct an already present pilot error by hard overriding, so the pilot is not given the last word s/he has in most other situations, or at least only after a few button switches which are specially protected. It's also worth mentioning that even extreme yoke action, working on the elevators only, is not able to fully compensate extreme stabilizer positions, the control surfaces MCAS uses (apart from, I suppose, creating unpleasant flight characteristics).
$endgroup$
From what I have read, the other answers explain the cutout procedure correctly. It is also important to keep in mind Korvin's remark that trim anomalies can occur for a variety of reasons. What I have not seen mentioned often or clearly enough is a crucial difference that distinguishes MCAS from regular trim control, a difference which was apparently not communicated clearly enough to the pilots. As an article by Leeham news points out:
[MCAS is] not stopped by the Pilot pulling the Yoke, which for normal trim from the autopilot or runaway manual trim triggers trim hold sensors.1
It is easy to imagine that pilots who have hopefully practiced emergency situations, like trim runaway during ascent, are puzzled and lost when the ingrained procedures do not work. From the NASA incident reports published in the Atlantic it becomes clear that the FAA advisory after the LionAir crash was discussed among the pilots. Apparently there were a few incidents where performing the proper cutout procedure saved the airplanes, among them the preceding LionAir flight.
1The reason for this design decision being that providing the pilot a way to easily override
would negate why MCAS was implemented, the Pilot pulling so hard on the Yoke that the aircraft is flying close to stall
In other words, MCAS is a mechanism to correct an already present pilot error by hard overriding, so the pilot is not given the last word s/he has in most other situations, or at least only after a few button switches which are specially protected. It's also worth mentioning that even extreme yoke action, working on the elevators only, is not able to fully compensate extreme stabilizer positions, the control surfaces MCAS uses (apart from, I suppose, creating unpleasant flight characteristics).
answered 22 hours ago
Peter A. SchneiderPeter A. Schneider
186110
186110
add a comment |
add a comment |
Thanks for contributing an answer to Aviation Stack Exchange!
- Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!
But avoid …
- Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.
- Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.
Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.
To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function ()
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2faviation.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f61203%2fhow-difficult-is-it-to-simply-disable-disengage-the-mcas-on-boeing-737-max-8-9%23new-answer', 'question_page');
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
13
$begingroup$
This question could be just as answerable without bringing up the two recent 737 Max crashes at all. You might consider just editing that part out; that would go a long way toward alleviating concerns that you want speculation on an accident, rather than operational details on an airplane.
$endgroup$
– a CVn
2 days ago
13
$begingroup$
@aCVn I think context is important. Many people use this site, not all are aviation nerds, by providing context to the question it establishes why the question and answers, are relevant and important. At least, thats my opinion. :)
$endgroup$
– Devil07
2 days ago
2
$begingroup$
Related: Can computer imposed inputs be overridden on the Boeing 737-MAX?
$endgroup$
– ymb1
2 days ago
$begingroup$
While this is an interesting question, if we're considering it for practical purposes, we also ought to ask what the purpose of MCAS is and what the consequences of disabling it would be.
$endgroup$
– David K
13 hours ago