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What happens if a creature's ETB would bounce Thalia, Heretic Cathar?
What does an Evil Twin of an opponent's Essence of the Wild look like?Can nonbasic dual lands such as “Azorius Chancery” be destroyed by the card text “destroy target land”?What happens if Ravager of the Fells can't target an opponent?Chained to the Rocks and shocklandsDo creatures come into play tapped if they come into play at the same time as a card which says “Creatures come into play tapped”?What happens when more than one creature dies causing a triggerCan an illegal target that will become a legal target before the spell resolves be targeted?What is the difference between Owning and Controlling an object on the Battlefield?Dream Eater leaves battlefield before SurveilWhat happens if Merfolk Trickster taps Emmara?
So during a game I had this scenario:
On my battlefield I have Thalia, Heretic Cathar, whose ability says
Creatures and nonbasic lands your opponent control enters the battlefield tapped.
Now the opponent played a creature that said
Whenever [this creature] enters the battlefield, return target creature an opponent controls to its owner's hand.
Now the question is, even if my Thalia is returning to my hand, I think that her ability still triggers or am I wrong? Would that creature be tapped?
In theory, since Thalia says that the creatures enter the battlefield tapped, this should resolve before the opponent's ability that says whenever the creature enters the battlefield, so according to the wording the opponent creature is already tapped before the ability resolves.
Is that correct?
magic-the-gathering
edited yesterday
doppelgreener
16.2k860123
asked yesterday
IvanIvan
1975
add a comment |
So during a game I had this scenario:
On my battlefield I have Thalia, Heretic Cathar, whose ability says
Creatures and nonbasic lands your opponent control enters the battlefield tapped.
Now the opponent played a creature that said
Whenever [this creature] enters the battlefield, return target creature an opponent controls to its owner's hand.
Now the question is, even if my Thalia is returning to my hand, I think that her ability still triggers or am I wrong? Would that creature be tapped?
In theory, since Thalia says that the creatures enter the battlefield tapped, this should resolve before the opponent's ability that says whenever the creature enters the battlefield, so according to the wording the opponent creature is already tapped before the ability resolves.
Is that correct?
magic-the-gathering
edited yesterday
doppelgreener
16.2k860123
asked yesterday
IvanIvan
1975
add a comment |
So during a game I had this scenario:
On my battlefield I have Thalia, Heretic Cathar, whose ability says
Creatures and nonbasic lands your opponent control enters the battlefield tapped.
Now the opponent played a creature that said
Whenever [this creature] enters the battlefield, return target creature an opponent controls to its owner's hand.
Now the question is, even if my Thalia is returning to my hand, I think that her ability still triggers or am I wrong? Would that creature be tapped?
In theory, since Thalia says that the creatures enter the battlefield tapped, this should resolve before the opponent's ability that says whenever the creature enters the battlefield, so according to the wording the opponent creature is already tapped before the ability resolves.
Is that correct?
magic-the-gathering
edited yesterday
doppelgreener
16.2k860123
asked yesterday
IvanIvan
1975
So during a game I had this scenario:
On my battlefield I have Thalia, Heretic Cathar, whose ability says
Creatures and nonbasic lands your opponent control enters the battlefield tapped.
Now the opponent played a creature that said
Whenever [this creature] enters the battlefield, return target creature an opponent controls to its owner's hand.
Now the question is, even if my Thalia is returning to my hand, I think that her ability still triggers or am I wrong? Would that creature be tapped?
In theory, since Thalia says that the creatures enter the battlefield tapped, this should resolve before the opponent's ability that says whenever the creature enters the battlefield, so according to the wording the opponent creature is already tapped before the ability resolves.
Is that correct?
magic-the-gathering
magic-the-gathering
edited yesterday
doppelgreener
16.2k860123
asked yesterday
IvanIvan
1975
edited yesterday
doppelgreener
16.2k860123
asked yesterday
IvanIvan
1975
edited yesterday
doppelgreener
16.2k860123
edited yesterday
doppelgreener
16.2k860123
edited yesterday
doppelgreener
16.2k860123
16.2k860123
asked yesterday
IvanIvan
1975
asked yesterday
IvanIvan
1975
asked yesterday
IvanIvan
1975
1975
add a comment |
add a comment |
1 Answer
1
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oldest
votes
Yes, this is correct. Thalia's ability is a so-called replacement effect
614.1. Some continuous effects are replacement effects. Like prevention effects (see rule 615), replacement effects apply continuously as events happen-they aren't locked in ahead of time. Such effects watch for a particular event that would happen and completely or partially replace that event with a different event. They act like "shields" around whatever they're affecting.
614.1d Continuous effects that read "[This permanent] enters the battlefield . . ." or "[Objects] enter the battlefield . . ." are replacement effects.
which doesn't go on the stack. Only when the new creature actually enters the battlefield (tapped), its enter the battlefield ability will trigger.
answered yesterday
GlorfindelGlorfindel
5,93611743
3
Absolutely correct, but perhaps worth pointing out that the end result would be the same even if this weren't a replacement effect (if it said, for example, "When a creature or nonbasic land your opponent controls enters the battlefield, tap that creature or land"). Thalia's ability would trigger along with the bounce effect, they'd both resolve (order depending on whose turn it is), and in the end Thalia gets bounced and the opponent's creature is tapped.
– Nuclear Wang
yesterday
1
@NuclearWang If you note that, it's perhaps also worth noting that there are differences between Thalia's ability and "When a creature or nonbasic land your opponent controls enters the battlefield, tap that creature or land", as creatures with haste and nonbasic lands can tap immediately (before that triggered ability taps them), but with Thalia they cannot.
– Spitemaster
yesterday
@Spitemaster Technically, abilities that have tapping as a cost can be used. Tapping a permanent, as an atomic act rather than as a cost or effect, is not allowed.
– Acccumulation
yesterday
@Acccumulation Yes, I suppose that was not completely clear. I just wanted to be pedantic about "the end result would be the same even if this weren't a replacement effect". ;)
– Spitemaster
yesterday
add a comment |
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1 Answer
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1 Answer
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Yes, this is correct. Thalia's ability is a so-called replacement effect
614.1. Some continuous effects are replacement effects. Like prevention effects (see rule 615), replacement effects apply continuously as events happen-they aren't locked in ahead of time. Such effects watch for a particular event that would happen and completely or partially replace that event with a different event. They act like "shields" around whatever they're affecting.
614.1d Continuous effects that read "[This permanent] enters the battlefield . . ." or "[Objects] enter the battlefield . . ." are replacement effects.
which doesn't go on the stack. Only when the new creature actually enters the battlefield (tapped), its enter the battlefield ability will trigger.
answered yesterday
GlorfindelGlorfindel
5,93611743
3
Absolutely correct, but perhaps worth pointing out that the end result would be the same even if this weren't a replacement effect (if it said, for example, "When a creature or nonbasic land your opponent controls enters the battlefield, tap that creature or land"). Thalia's ability would trigger along with the bounce effect, they'd both resolve (order depending on whose turn it is), and in the end Thalia gets bounced and the opponent's creature is tapped.
– Nuclear Wang
yesterday
1
@NuclearWang If you note that, it's perhaps also worth noting that there are differences between Thalia's ability and "When a creature or nonbasic land your opponent controls enters the battlefield, tap that creature or land", as creatures with haste and nonbasic lands can tap immediately (before that triggered ability taps them), but with Thalia they cannot.
– Spitemaster
yesterday
@Spitemaster Technically, abilities that have tapping as a cost can be used. Tapping a permanent, as an atomic act rather than as a cost or effect, is not allowed.
– Acccumulation
yesterday
@Acccumulation Yes, I suppose that was not completely clear. I just wanted to be pedantic about "the end result would be the same even if this weren't a replacement effect". ;)
– Spitemaster
yesterday
add a comment |
Yes, this is correct. Thalia's ability is a so-called replacement effect
614.1. Some continuous effects are replacement effects. Like prevention effects (see rule 615), replacement effects apply continuously as events happen-they aren't locked in ahead of time. Such effects watch for a particular event that would happen and completely or partially replace that event with a different event. They act like "shields" around whatever they're affecting.
614.1d Continuous effects that read "[This permanent] enters the battlefield . . ." or "[Objects] enter the battlefield . . ." are replacement effects.
which doesn't go on the stack. Only when the new creature actually enters the battlefield (tapped), its enter the battlefield ability will trigger.
answered yesterday
GlorfindelGlorfindel
5,93611743
3
Absolutely correct, but perhaps worth pointing out that the end result would be the same even if this weren't a replacement effect (if it said, for example, "When a creature or nonbasic land your opponent controls enters the battlefield, tap that creature or land"). Thalia's ability would trigger along with the bounce effect, they'd both resolve (order depending on whose turn it is), and in the end Thalia gets bounced and the opponent's creature is tapped.
– Nuclear Wang
yesterday
1
@NuclearWang If you note that, it's perhaps also worth noting that there are differences between Thalia's ability and "When a creature or nonbasic land your opponent controls enters the battlefield, tap that creature or land", as creatures with haste and nonbasic lands can tap immediately (before that triggered ability taps them), but with Thalia they cannot.
– Spitemaster
yesterday
@Spitemaster Technically, abilities that have tapping as a cost can be used. Tapping a permanent, as an atomic act rather than as a cost or effect, is not allowed.
– Acccumulation
yesterday
@Acccumulation Yes, I suppose that was not completely clear. I just wanted to be pedantic about "the end result would be the same even if this weren't a replacement effect". ;)
– Spitemaster
yesterday
add a comment |
Yes, this is correct. Thalia's ability is a so-called replacement effect
614.1. Some continuous effects are replacement effects. Like prevention effects (see rule 615), replacement effects apply continuously as events happen-they aren't locked in ahead of time. Such effects watch for a particular event that would happen and completely or partially replace that event with a different event. They act like "shields" around whatever they're affecting.
614.1d Continuous effects that read "[This permanent] enters the battlefield . . ." or "[Objects] enter the battlefield . . ." are replacement effects.
which doesn't go on the stack. Only when the new creature actually enters the battlefield (tapped), its enter the battlefield ability will trigger.
answered yesterday
GlorfindelGlorfindel
5,93611743
Yes, this is correct. Thalia's ability is a so-called replacement effect
614.1. Some continuous effects are replacement effects. Like prevention effects (see rule 615), replacement effects apply continuously as events happen-they aren't locked in ahead of time. Such effects watch for a particular event that would happen and completely or partially replace that event with a different event. They act like "shields" around whatever they're affecting.
614.1d Continuous effects that read "[This permanent] enters the battlefield . . ." or "[Objects] enter the battlefield . . ." are replacement effects.
which doesn't go on the stack. Only when the new creature actually enters the battlefield (tapped), its enter the battlefield ability will trigger.
answered yesterday
GlorfindelGlorfindel
5,93611743
answered yesterday
GlorfindelGlorfindel
5,93611743
answered yesterday
GlorfindelGlorfindel
5,93611743
answered yesterday
GlorfindelGlorfindel
5,93611743
5,93611743
3
Absolutely correct, but perhaps worth pointing out that the end result would be the same even if this weren't a replacement effect (if it said, for example, "When a creature or nonbasic land your opponent controls enters the battlefield, tap that creature or land"). Thalia's ability would trigger along with the bounce effect, they'd both resolve (order depending on whose turn it is), and in the end Thalia gets bounced and the opponent's creature is tapped.
– Nuclear Wang
yesterday
1
@NuclearWang If you note that, it's perhaps also worth noting that there are differences between Thalia's ability and "When a creature or nonbasic land your opponent controls enters the battlefield, tap that creature or land", as creatures with haste and nonbasic lands can tap immediately (before that triggered ability taps them), but with Thalia they cannot.
– Spitemaster
yesterday
@Spitemaster Technically, abilities that have tapping as a cost can be used. Tapping a permanent, as an atomic act rather than as a cost or effect, is not allowed.
– Acccumulation
yesterday
@Acccumulation Yes, I suppose that was not completely clear. I just wanted to be pedantic about "the end result would be the same even if this weren't a replacement effect". ;)
– Spitemaster
yesterday
add a comment |
3
Absolutely correct, but perhaps worth pointing out that the end result would be the same even if this weren't a replacement effect (if it said, for example, "When a creature or nonbasic land your opponent controls enters the battlefield, tap that creature or land"). Thalia's ability would trigger along with the bounce effect, they'd both resolve (order depending on whose turn it is), and in the end Thalia gets bounced and the opponent's creature is tapped.
– Nuclear Wang
yesterday
1
@NuclearWang If you note that, it's perhaps also worth noting that there are differences between Thalia's ability and "When a creature or nonbasic land your opponent controls enters the battlefield, tap that creature or land", as creatures with haste and nonbasic lands can tap immediately (before that triggered ability taps them), but with Thalia they cannot.
– Spitemaster
yesterday
@Spitemaster Technically, abilities that have tapping as a cost can be used. Tapping a permanent, as an atomic act rather than as a cost or effect, is not allowed.
– Acccumulation
yesterday
@Acccumulation Yes, I suppose that was not completely clear. I just wanted to be pedantic about "the end result would be the same even if this weren't a replacement effect". ;)
– Spitemaster
yesterday
3
3
Absolutely correct, but perhaps worth pointing out that the end result would be the same even if this weren't a replacement effect (if it said, for example, "When a creature or nonbasic land your opponent controls enters the battlefield, tap that creature or land"). Thalia's ability would trigger along with the bounce effect, they'd both resolve (order depending on whose turn it is), and in the end Thalia gets bounced and the opponent's creature is tapped.
– Nuclear Wang
yesterday
Absolutely correct, but perhaps worth pointing out that the end result would be the same even if this weren't a replacement effect (if it said, for example, "When a creature or nonbasic land your opponent controls enters the battlefield, tap that creature or land"). Thalia's ability would trigger along with the bounce effect, they'd both resolve (order depending on whose turn it is), and in the end Thalia gets bounced and the opponent's creature is tapped.
– Nuclear Wang
yesterday
1
1
@NuclearWang If you note that, it's perhaps also worth noting that there are differences between Thalia's ability and "When a creature or nonbasic land your opponent controls enters the battlefield, tap that creature or land", as creatures with haste and nonbasic lands can tap immediately (before that triggered ability taps them), but with Thalia they cannot.
– Spitemaster
yesterday
@NuclearWang If you note that, it's perhaps also worth noting that there are differences between Thalia's ability and "When a creature or nonbasic land your opponent controls enters the battlefield, tap that creature or land", as creatures with haste and nonbasic lands can tap immediately (before that triggered ability taps them), but with Thalia they cannot.
– Spitemaster
yesterday
@Spitemaster Technically, abilities that have tapping as a cost can be used. Tapping a permanent, as an atomic act rather than as a cost or effect, is not allowed.
– Acccumulation
yesterday
@Spitemaster Technically, abilities that have tapping as a cost can be used. Tapping a permanent, as an atomic act rather than as a cost or effect, is not allowed.
– Acccumulation
yesterday
@Acccumulation Yes, I suppose that was not completely clear. I just wanted to be pedantic about "the end result would be the same even if this weren't a replacement effect". ;)
– Spitemaster
yesterday
@Acccumulation Yes, I suppose that was not completely clear. I just wanted to be pedantic about "the end result would be the same even if this weren't a replacement effect". ;)
– Spitemaster
yesterday
add a comment |
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