What's the difference between /ɪ/ and /i(ː)/?How can I differentiate between syllable-initial [ɣ] and [ə] using Praat or other software?Is the concept of 'long vowel' still relevant in modern English phonology?Question regarding leading “r” sounds in JapaneseWhat's the evidence for and against isochrony?Is there a meaning difference between “each” and “every” as NP modifier?Three questions regarding the distinctions between certain broad and slender sounds in IrishWhy vowels sound different from each otherIf there is really an /ə/ between /dəɹ/ in “quandary”How linguists determine the sounds a speaker is performingThe difference between [w] and [u] (especially between the states of the lips)

How is the partial sum of a geometric sequence calculated?

Usage and meaning of "up" in "...worth at least a thousand pounds up in London"

What does Deadpool mean by "left the house in that shirt"?

The average age of first marriage in Russia

Using Past-Perfect interchangeably with the Past Continuous

What does Jesus mean regarding "Raca," and "you fool?" - is he contrasting them?

In what cases must I use 了 and in what cases not?

In Aliens, how many people were on LV-426 before the Marines arrived​?

Practical application of matrices and determinants

What favor did Moody owe Dumbledore?

Differential and Linear trail propagation in Noekeon

Do native speakers use "ultima" and "proxima" frequently in spoken English?

Why is there so much iron?

Is it insecure to send a password in a `curl` command?

Brake pads destroying wheels

Deletion of copy-ctor & copy-assignment - public, private or protected?

gerund and noun applications

Is there a hypothetical scenario that would make Earth uninhabitable for humans, but not for (the majority of) other animals?

Help rendering a complicated sum/product formula

Why are there no stars visible in cislunar space?

HP P840 HDD RAID 5 many strange drive failures

How can an organ that provides biological immortality be unable to regenerate?

Should I be concerned about student access to a test bank?

Is there a term for accumulated dirt on the outside of your hands and feet?



What's the difference between /ɪ/ and /i(ː)/?


How can I differentiate between syllable-initial [ɣ] and [ə] using Praat or other software?Is the concept of 'long vowel' still relevant in modern English phonology?Question regarding leading “r” sounds in JapaneseWhat's the evidence for and against isochrony?Is there a meaning difference between “each” and “every” as NP modifier?Three questions regarding the distinctions between certain broad and slender sounds in IrishWhy vowels sound different from each otherIf there is really an /ə/ between /dəɹ/ in “quandary”How linguists determine the sounds a speaker is performingThe difference between [w] and [u] (especially between the states of the lips)













7















In English there's the vowel sound /ɪ/ as in "bin" and /i(ː)/ as in "been".



My girlfriend, who is Greek, cannot perceive the difference, but to me they sound very different.



Is the difference really only the length of the vowel?



If I hold the vowel in "bin", it doesn't sound at all like "been" to me, but is that down to me starting out knowing what word I'm trying to say, and so I'm primed to hear "bin" over "been"?










share|improve this question

















  • 5





    It's perfectly normal for a speaker of a language not having a distinction, to finding very hard to tell the sounds apart. Distinguishing /i:/ from /ɪ/ took me years, and /ɛ/ from /æ/ is still quite hard. On the other hand, I've been told that for English speakers it is hard to distinguish /ɛ/ from /e/, which seems unimaginable to me.

    – Denis Nardin
    2 days ago






  • 1





    Your statement that you've been "primed" is very salient. An easy example: do you know/perceive that most English speakers pronounce the /p/ phoneme of the letter p of spin and pin very differently?

    – Michaelyus
    2 days ago







  • 3





    Wait, isn't /i:/ the sound in bean, not been?

    – Hearth
    2 days ago






  • 2





    @Hearth: "been" is pronounced the same way as "bean" by some people, particularly in British English.

    – sumelic
    2 days ago






  • 1





    @sumelic I never knew that, huh! Thanks for telling me that; now I know I'm not going even further insane.

    – Hearth
    2 days ago















7















In English there's the vowel sound /ɪ/ as in "bin" and /i(ː)/ as in "been".



My girlfriend, who is Greek, cannot perceive the difference, but to me they sound very different.



Is the difference really only the length of the vowel?



If I hold the vowel in "bin", it doesn't sound at all like "been" to me, but is that down to me starting out knowing what word I'm trying to say, and so I'm primed to hear "bin" over "been"?










share|improve this question

















  • 5





    It's perfectly normal for a speaker of a language not having a distinction, to finding very hard to tell the sounds apart. Distinguishing /i:/ from /ɪ/ took me years, and /ɛ/ from /æ/ is still quite hard. On the other hand, I've been told that for English speakers it is hard to distinguish /ɛ/ from /e/, which seems unimaginable to me.

    – Denis Nardin
    2 days ago






  • 1





    Your statement that you've been "primed" is very salient. An easy example: do you know/perceive that most English speakers pronounce the /p/ phoneme of the letter p of spin and pin very differently?

    – Michaelyus
    2 days ago







  • 3





    Wait, isn't /i:/ the sound in bean, not been?

    – Hearth
    2 days ago






  • 2





    @Hearth: "been" is pronounced the same way as "bean" by some people, particularly in British English.

    – sumelic
    2 days ago






  • 1





    @sumelic I never knew that, huh! Thanks for telling me that; now I know I'm not going even further insane.

    – Hearth
    2 days ago













7












7








7








In English there's the vowel sound /ɪ/ as in "bin" and /i(ː)/ as in "been".



My girlfriend, who is Greek, cannot perceive the difference, but to me they sound very different.



Is the difference really only the length of the vowel?



If I hold the vowel in "bin", it doesn't sound at all like "been" to me, but is that down to me starting out knowing what word I'm trying to say, and so I'm primed to hear "bin" over "been"?










share|improve this question














In English there's the vowel sound /ɪ/ as in "bin" and /i(ː)/ as in "been".



My girlfriend, who is Greek, cannot perceive the difference, but to me they sound very different.



Is the difference really only the length of the vowel?



If I hold the vowel in "bin", it doesn't sound at all like "been" to me, but is that down to me starting out knowing what word I'm trying to say, and so I'm primed to hear "bin" over "been"?







english phonetics






share|improve this question













share|improve this question











share|improve this question




share|improve this question










asked 2 days ago









Matt EllenMatt Ellen

18315




18315







  • 5





    It's perfectly normal for a speaker of a language not having a distinction, to finding very hard to tell the sounds apart. Distinguishing /i:/ from /ɪ/ took me years, and /ɛ/ from /æ/ is still quite hard. On the other hand, I've been told that for English speakers it is hard to distinguish /ɛ/ from /e/, which seems unimaginable to me.

    – Denis Nardin
    2 days ago






  • 1





    Your statement that you've been "primed" is very salient. An easy example: do you know/perceive that most English speakers pronounce the /p/ phoneme of the letter p of spin and pin very differently?

    – Michaelyus
    2 days ago







  • 3





    Wait, isn't /i:/ the sound in bean, not been?

    – Hearth
    2 days ago






  • 2





    @Hearth: "been" is pronounced the same way as "bean" by some people, particularly in British English.

    – sumelic
    2 days ago






  • 1





    @sumelic I never knew that, huh! Thanks for telling me that; now I know I'm not going even further insane.

    – Hearth
    2 days ago












  • 5





    It's perfectly normal for a speaker of a language not having a distinction, to finding very hard to tell the sounds apart. Distinguishing /i:/ from /ɪ/ took me years, and /ɛ/ from /æ/ is still quite hard. On the other hand, I've been told that for English speakers it is hard to distinguish /ɛ/ from /e/, which seems unimaginable to me.

    – Denis Nardin
    2 days ago






  • 1





    Your statement that you've been "primed" is very salient. An easy example: do you know/perceive that most English speakers pronounce the /p/ phoneme of the letter p of spin and pin very differently?

    – Michaelyus
    2 days ago







  • 3





    Wait, isn't /i:/ the sound in bean, not been?

    – Hearth
    2 days ago






  • 2





    @Hearth: "been" is pronounced the same way as "bean" by some people, particularly in British English.

    – sumelic
    2 days ago






  • 1





    @sumelic I never knew that, huh! Thanks for telling me that; now I know I'm not going even further insane.

    – Hearth
    2 days ago







5




5





It's perfectly normal for a speaker of a language not having a distinction, to finding very hard to tell the sounds apart. Distinguishing /i:/ from /ɪ/ took me years, and /ɛ/ from /æ/ is still quite hard. On the other hand, I've been told that for English speakers it is hard to distinguish /ɛ/ from /e/, which seems unimaginable to me.

– Denis Nardin
2 days ago





It's perfectly normal for a speaker of a language not having a distinction, to finding very hard to tell the sounds apart. Distinguishing /i:/ from /ɪ/ took me years, and /ɛ/ from /æ/ is still quite hard. On the other hand, I've been told that for English speakers it is hard to distinguish /ɛ/ from /e/, which seems unimaginable to me.

– Denis Nardin
2 days ago




1




1





Your statement that you've been "primed" is very salient. An easy example: do you know/perceive that most English speakers pronounce the /p/ phoneme of the letter p of spin and pin very differently?

– Michaelyus
2 days ago






Your statement that you've been "primed" is very salient. An easy example: do you know/perceive that most English speakers pronounce the /p/ phoneme of the letter p of spin and pin very differently?

– Michaelyus
2 days ago





3




3





Wait, isn't /i:/ the sound in bean, not been?

– Hearth
2 days ago





Wait, isn't /i:/ the sound in bean, not been?

– Hearth
2 days ago




2




2





@Hearth: "been" is pronounced the same way as "bean" by some people, particularly in British English.

– sumelic
2 days ago





@Hearth: "been" is pronounced the same way as "bean" by some people, particularly in British English.

– sumelic
2 days ago




1




1





@sumelic I never knew that, huh! Thanks for telling me that; now I know I'm not going even further insane.

– Hearth
2 days ago





@sumelic I never knew that, huh! Thanks for telling me that; now I know I'm not going even further insane.

– Hearth
2 days ago










2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes


















11














They aren't just different in length. In fact, depending on the context, an occurrence of the phoneme /ɪ/ might be phonetically shorter than an occurrence of the phoneme /i(ː)/.



Broadly speaking, English /ɪ/ is pronounced as IPA [ɪ], and English /i(ː)/ is pronounced somewhere around IPA [i], [ɪi], [ɪj]. The IPA symbols [ɪ] and [i] represent vowels of different "qualities", not just different lengths. Vowel quality is related to the position of certain parts of the tongue during the pronunciation of the vowel, and it can be thought of as mainly involving two dimensions, "closeness" (also known as "height") and "frontness/backness". These can be plotted against each other to get a visual depiction of a "vowel space", which is often depicted as a trapezoid or triangle.



  • The vowel [ɪ] is opener than [i] (or equivalently, the vowel [i] is closer than [ɪ]). This means that the tongue is supposed to get closer to the top of the mouth when pronouncing [i]. You can express the same idea in different words by saying that the vowel [ɪ] is lower than [i] (or equivalently, that the vowel [i] is higher than [ɪ]).


  • The vowel [ɪ] is also generally said to be less front than /i/, although it's a bit harder for me to define what this means in physiological terms. (The simplified explanation is just that the back of the tongue is more involved in pronouncing [ɪ].)


Using a transcription like [ɪi] or [ɪj] for /i(ː)/ represents that the vowels /i(ː)/ and /ɪ/ often differ not only by having different qualities (i.e. different positions in the vowel space), but also by having different "trajectories" for their qualities over time: /i(ː)/ tends to become closer towards the end, with an "offglide" that resembles the approximant /j/ (the "y"-sound of yellow). The /ɪ/ sound typically doesn't have this y-like offglide. (In some circumstances, /ɪ/ might actually become more open towards its end, which could be transcribed as something like [ɪə]).



We can measure the acoustic quality of a vowel by looking at the position of its "formants" on a spectrogram. For example, the closer a vowel is, the lower its first formant will be. You can see pictures and more explanation on this page: https://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~robh/howto.html#formants






share|improve this answer
































    3














    enter image description here



    No, the difference is not just—or even primarily—one of duration. Although in any given environment /i:/ wil be longer than /ɪ/, their environments radically affect their durations. Because of this, the realisation of /i:/ in some environments will be shorter than that of /ɪ/ in others.



    The difference between realisations of /i:/ and /ɪ/



    Despite the fact that /i:/ for most speakers will be consistently and reliably longer than /ɪ/ in the same situation, this is not the most significant difference between the realisations of these two vowels. They are qualitatively different.



    Just behind your teeth, you can feel it with your tongue, there is a little shelf that slopes slightly upwards. This is your alveolar ridge. Behind this, your mouth suddenly arches upwards to form the roof of your mouth. Now, if you feel just behind this ridge with your tongue you will be able to feel that this part of your mouth is hard and boney. This part of the roof of your mouth is your ʜᴀʀᴅ ᴘᴀʟᴀᴛᴇ. If you carry on exploring further backwards with the tip of your tongue (it gets a bit ticklish) you will feel that the roof of your mouth becomes soft and tissuey. This tissuey part of the roof of your mouth is your sᴏғᴛ ᴘᴀʟᴀᴛᴇ. This change happens about half way back.



    When most speakers make an /i:/, that part of their tongue directly below where your hard and soft palate meet rises up very close to the roof of the mouth. If you are an RP (Southern Standard British English) speaker, it will come so close to the roof of your mouth that if it got any closer, it would cause the air passing through to become turbulent and would effectively turn the sound into a consonant. If you speak General American, then the gap between your tongue and the roof of your mouth will be ever so slightly bigger.



    For most speakers, when they produce an /⁠ɪ/, the gap between their tongue and the roof of their mouths will be significantly bigger than it would be for /i:/. It will be nowhere near close enough to cause any turbulence. In addition that part of the tongue that will rise up towards the roof of the mouth will be some millimetres further back from that part that would rise up for /i:/.




    The Original Poster's partner



    It is important to realise that what I have described are typical realisations . So a given realisation of /i:/ might be lower than IPA [i], and a realisation of /ɪ/ might be higher or lower or more front or more back than IPA [ɪ]. (I haven't talked at all about the diphthongalisation of /i:/, because I'm not sure it is helpful here)



    The reason that the Original Poster (OP) can hear this difference in vowel quality, but their partner can't, is that in English this difference in vowel quality leads to a difference in meaning. So there are words in English which can be clearly distinguished solely because of this relatively very small difference in the highness and frontness of the vowel produced by a speaker.



    However, for a speaker of Greek, both of the sounds that might be produced by an English speaker aiming for /ɪ/ or /i:/ would be understood to be variations of the same Greek phoneme. It is extraordinarily rare for a language to have two separate high front vowels. Whether a (typical) Greek speaker listens to a pronunciation of /ɪ/ or /i:/, their language brain will map both sounds onto the Greek I phoneme. So, for example, the words piss and peace will both sound like the word πεις for a Greek speaker, which is the subjunctive of the verb say.



    However, if an English speaker wanted to help another non-native speaker hear the difference between the two vowels, there usually is a safe way to do so.



    A majority of languages have a high front vowel and a mid front vowel. For a vast majority of speakers these would be thought of as I and E respectively. The I vowel in these languages is typically between English /i:/ and /ɪ/. Greek happens to be one of these languages.



    If you want to help such a speaker hear the difference, show them that if you give them a triplet of words such as beat, bit, bet (/bi:t, bɪt, bet/, respectively), they will be able to hear that bit is closer to bet than beat is.




    Footnote:



    An interesting fact about the phonology of the word been : when it is stressed, or occasionaly when it's the last word in a sentence, it's pronounced /bi:n/—just like the word bean. However, it is usually neither stressed nor the last word in a sentence. In these circumstances, it is usually pronounced /bɪn/—just like the word bin. English is weird, isn't it?






    share|improve this answer
























      Your Answer








      StackExchange.ready(function()
      var channelOptions =
      tags: "".split(" "),
      id: "312"
      ;
      initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

      StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function()
      // Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
      if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled)
      StackExchange.using("snippets", function()
      createEditor();
      );

      else
      createEditor();

      );

      function createEditor()
      StackExchange.prepareEditor(
      heartbeatType: 'answer',
      autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
      convertImagesToLinks: false,
      noModals: true,
      showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
      reputationToPostImages: null,
      bindNavPrevention: true,
      postfix: "",
      imageUploader:
      brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
      contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
      allowUrls: true
      ,
      noCode: true, onDemand: true,
      discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
      ,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
      );



      );













      draft saved

      draft discarded


















      StackExchange.ready(
      function ()
      StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2flinguistics.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f30886%2fwhats-the-difference-between-%25c9%25aa-and-i%25cb%2590%23new-answer', 'question_page');

      );

      Post as a guest















      Required, but never shown

























      2 Answers
      2






      active

      oldest

      votes








      2 Answers
      2






      active

      oldest

      votes









      active

      oldest

      votes






      active

      oldest

      votes









      11














      They aren't just different in length. In fact, depending on the context, an occurrence of the phoneme /ɪ/ might be phonetically shorter than an occurrence of the phoneme /i(ː)/.



      Broadly speaking, English /ɪ/ is pronounced as IPA [ɪ], and English /i(ː)/ is pronounced somewhere around IPA [i], [ɪi], [ɪj]. The IPA symbols [ɪ] and [i] represent vowels of different "qualities", not just different lengths. Vowel quality is related to the position of certain parts of the tongue during the pronunciation of the vowel, and it can be thought of as mainly involving two dimensions, "closeness" (also known as "height") and "frontness/backness". These can be plotted against each other to get a visual depiction of a "vowel space", which is often depicted as a trapezoid or triangle.



      • The vowel [ɪ] is opener than [i] (or equivalently, the vowel [i] is closer than [ɪ]). This means that the tongue is supposed to get closer to the top of the mouth when pronouncing [i]. You can express the same idea in different words by saying that the vowel [ɪ] is lower than [i] (or equivalently, that the vowel [i] is higher than [ɪ]).


      • The vowel [ɪ] is also generally said to be less front than /i/, although it's a bit harder for me to define what this means in physiological terms. (The simplified explanation is just that the back of the tongue is more involved in pronouncing [ɪ].)


      Using a transcription like [ɪi] or [ɪj] for /i(ː)/ represents that the vowels /i(ː)/ and /ɪ/ often differ not only by having different qualities (i.e. different positions in the vowel space), but also by having different "trajectories" for their qualities over time: /i(ː)/ tends to become closer towards the end, with an "offglide" that resembles the approximant /j/ (the "y"-sound of yellow). The /ɪ/ sound typically doesn't have this y-like offglide. (In some circumstances, /ɪ/ might actually become more open towards its end, which could be transcribed as something like [ɪə]).



      We can measure the acoustic quality of a vowel by looking at the position of its "formants" on a spectrogram. For example, the closer a vowel is, the lower its first formant will be. You can see pictures and more explanation on this page: https://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~robh/howto.html#formants






      share|improve this answer





























        11














        They aren't just different in length. In fact, depending on the context, an occurrence of the phoneme /ɪ/ might be phonetically shorter than an occurrence of the phoneme /i(ː)/.



        Broadly speaking, English /ɪ/ is pronounced as IPA [ɪ], and English /i(ː)/ is pronounced somewhere around IPA [i], [ɪi], [ɪj]. The IPA symbols [ɪ] and [i] represent vowels of different "qualities", not just different lengths. Vowel quality is related to the position of certain parts of the tongue during the pronunciation of the vowel, and it can be thought of as mainly involving two dimensions, "closeness" (also known as "height") and "frontness/backness". These can be plotted against each other to get a visual depiction of a "vowel space", which is often depicted as a trapezoid or triangle.



        • The vowel [ɪ] is opener than [i] (or equivalently, the vowel [i] is closer than [ɪ]). This means that the tongue is supposed to get closer to the top of the mouth when pronouncing [i]. You can express the same idea in different words by saying that the vowel [ɪ] is lower than [i] (or equivalently, that the vowel [i] is higher than [ɪ]).


        • The vowel [ɪ] is also generally said to be less front than /i/, although it's a bit harder for me to define what this means in physiological terms. (The simplified explanation is just that the back of the tongue is more involved in pronouncing [ɪ].)


        Using a transcription like [ɪi] or [ɪj] for /i(ː)/ represents that the vowels /i(ː)/ and /ɪ/ often differ not only by having different qualities (i.e. different positions in the vowel space), but also by having different "trajectories" for their qualities over time: /i(ː)/ tends to become closer towards the end, with an "offglide" that resembles the approximant /j/ (the "y"-sound of yellow). The /ɪ/ sound typically doesn't have this y-like offglide. (In some circumstances, /ɪ/ might actually become more open towards its end, which could be transcribed as something like [ɪə]).



        We can measure the acoustic quality of a vowel by looking at the position of its "formants" on a spectrogram. For example, the closer a vowel is, the lower its first formant will be. You can see pictures and more explanation on this page: https://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~robh/howto.html#formants






        share|improve this answer



























          11












          11








          11







          They aren't just different in length. In fact, depending on the context, an occurrence of the phoneme /ɪ/ might be phonetically shorter than an occurrence of the phoneme /i(ː)/.



          Broadly speaking, English /ɪ/ is pronounced as IPA [ɪ], and English /i(ː)/ is pronounced somewhere around IPA [i], [ɪi], [ɪj]. The IPA symbols [ɪ] and [i] represent vowels of different "qualities", not just different lengths. Vowel quality is related to the position of certain parts of the tongue during the pronunciation of the vowel, and it can be thought of as mainly involving two dimensions, "closeness" (also known as "height") and "frontness/backness". These can be plotted against each other to get a visual depiction of a "vowel space", which is often depicted as a trapezoid or triangle.



          • The vowel [ɪ] is opener than [i] (or equivalently, the vowel [i] is closer than [ɪ]). This means that the tongue is supposed to get closer to the top of the mouth when pronouncing [i]. You can express the same idea in different words by saying that the vowel [ɪ] is lower than [i] (or equivalently, that the vowel [i] is higher than [ɪ]).


          • The vowel [ɪ] is also generally said to be less front than /i/, although it's a bit harder for me to define what this means in physiological terms. (The simplified explanation is just that the back of the tongue is more involved in pronouncing [ɪ].)


          Using a transcription like [ɪi] or [ɪj] for /i(ː)/ represents that the vowels /i(ː)/ and /ɪ/ often differ not only by having different qualities (i.e. different positions in the vowel space), but also by having different "trajectories" for their qualities over time: /i(ː)/ tends to become closer towards the end, with an "offglide" that resembles the approximant /j/ (the "y"-sound of yellow). The /ɪ/ sound typically doesn't have this y-like offglide. (In some circumstances, /ɪ/ might actually become more open towards its end, which could be transcribed as something like [ɪə]).



          We can measure the acoustic quality of a vowel by looking at the position of its "formants" on a spectrogram. For example, the closer a vowel is, the lower its first formant will be. You can see pictures and more explanation on this page: https://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~robh/howto.html#formants






          share|improve this answer















          They aren't just different in length. In fact, depending on the context, an occurrence of the phoneme /ɪ/ might be phonetically shorter than an occurrence of the phoneme /i(ː)/.



          Broadly speaking, English /ɪ/ is pronounced as IPA [ɪ], and English /i(ː)/ is pronounced somewhere around IPA [i], [ɪi], [ɪj]. The IPA symbols [ɪ] and [i] represent vowels of different "qualities", not just different lengths. Vowel quality is related to the position of certain parts of the tongue during the pronunciation of the vowel, and it can be thought of as mainly involving two dimensions, "closeness" (also known as "height") and "frontness/backness". These can be plotted against each other to get a visual depiction of a "vowel space", which is often depicted as a trapezoid or triangle.



          • The vowel [ɪ] is opener than [i] (or equivalently, the vowel [i] is closer than [ɪ]). This means that the tongue is supposed to get closer to the top of the mouth when pronouncing [i]. You can express the same idea in different words by saying that the vowel [ɪ] is lower than [i] (or equivalently, that the vowel [i] is higher than [ɪ]).


          • The vowel [ɪ] is also generally said to be less front than /i/, although it's a bit harder for me to define what this means in physiological terms. (The simplified explanation is just that the back of the tongue is more involved in pronouncing [ɪ].)


          Using a transcription like [ɪi] or [ɪj] for /i(ː)/ represents that the vowels /i(ː)/ and /ɪ/ often differ not only by having different qualities (i.e. different positions in the vowel space), but also by having different "trajectories" for their qualities over time: /i(ː)/ tends to become closer towards the end, with an "offglide" that resembles the approximant /j/ (the "y"-sound of yellow). The /ɪ/ sound typically doesn't have this y-like offglide. (In some circumstances, /ɪ/ might actually become more open towards its end, which could be transcribed as something like [ɪə]).



          We can measure the acoustic quality of a vowel by looking at the position of its "formants" on a spectrogram. For example, the closer a vowel is, the lower its first formant will be. You can see pictures and more explanation on this page: https://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~robh/howto.html#formants







          share|improve this answer














          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer








          edited 2 days ago

























          answered 2 days ago









          sumelicsumelic

          9,84012156




          9,84012156





















              3














              enter image description here



              No, the difference is not just—or even primarily—one of duration. Although in any given environment /i:/ wil be longer than /ɪ/, their environments radically affect their durations. Because of this, the realisation of /i:/ in some environments will be shorter than that of /ɪ/ in others.



              The difference between realisations of /i:/ and /ɪ/



              Despite the fact that /i:/ for most speakers will be consistently and reliably longer than /ɪ/ in the same situation, this is not the most significant difference between the realisations of these two vowels. They are qualitatively different.



              Just behind your teeth, you can feel it with your tongue, there is a little shelf that slopes slightly upwards. This is your alveolar ridge. Behind this, your mouth suddenly arches upwards to form the roof of your mouth. Now, if you feel just behind this ridge with your tongue you will be able to feel that this part of your mouth is hard and boney. This part of the roof of your mouth is your ʜᴀʀᴅ ᴘᴀʟᴀᴛᴇ. If you carry on exploring further backwards with the tip of your tongue (it gets a bit ticklish) you will feel that the roof of your mouth becomes soft and tissuey. This tissuey part of the roof of your mouth is your sᴏғᴛ ᴘᴀʟᴀᴛᴇ. This change happens about half way back.



              When most speakers make an /i:/, that part of their tongue directly below where your hard and soft palate meet rises up very close to the roof of the mouth. If you are an RP (Southern Standard British English) speaker, it will come so close to the roof of your mouth that if it got any closer, it would cause the air passing through to become turbulent and would effectively turn the sound into a consonant. If you speak General American, then the gap between your tongue and the roof of your mouth will be ever so slightly bigger.



              For most speakers, when they produce an /⁠ɪ/, the gap between their tongue and the roof of their mouths will be significantly bigger than it would be for /i:/. It will be nowhere near close enough to cause any turbulence. In addition that part of the tongue that will rise up towards the roof of the mouth will be some millimetres further back from that part that would rise up for /i:/.




              The Original Poster's partner



              It is important to realise that what I have described are typical realisations . So a given realisation of /i:/ might be lower than IPA [i], and a realisation of /ɪ/ might be higher or lower or more front or more back than IPA [ɪ]. (I haven't talked at all about the diphthongalisation of /i:/, because I'm not sure it is helpful here)



              The reason that the Original Poster (OP) can hear this difference in vowel quality, but their partner can't, is that in English this difference in vowel quality leads to a difference in meaning. So there are words in English which can be clearly distinguished solely because of this relatively very small difference in the highness and frontness of the vowel produced by a speaker.



              However, for a speaker of Greek, both of the sounds that might be produced by an English speaker aiming for /ɪ/ or /i:/ would be understood to be variations of the same Greek phoneme. It is extraordinarily rare for a language to have two separate high front vowels. Whether a (typical) Greek speaker listens to a pronunciation of /ɪ/ or /i:/, their language brain will map both sounds onto the Greek I phoneme. So, for example, the words piss and peace will both sound like the word πεις for a Greek speaker, which is the subjunctive of the verb say.



              However, if an English speaker wanted to help another non-native speaker hear the difference between the two vowels, there usually is a safe way to do so.



              A majority of languages have a high front vowel and a mid front vowel. For a vast majority of speakers these would be thought of as I and E respectively. The I vowel in these languages is typically between English /i:/ and /ɪ/. Greek happens to be one of these languages.



              If you want to help such a speaker hear the difference, show them that if you give them a triplet of words such as beat, bit, bet (/bi:t, bɪt, bet/, respectively), they will be able to hear that bit is closer to bet than beat is.




              Footnote:



              An interesting fact about the phonology of the word been : when it is stressed, or occasionaly when it's the last word in a sentence, it's pronounced /bi:n/—just like the word bean. However, it is usually neither stressed nor the last word in a sentence. In these circumstances, it is usually pronounced /bɪn/—just like the word bin. English is weird, isn't it?






              share|improve this answer





























                3














                enter image description here



                No, the difference is not just—or even primarily—one of duration. Although in any given environment /i:/ wil be longer than /ɪ/, their environments radically affect their durations. Because of this, the realisation of /i:/ in some environments will be shorter than that of /ɪ/ in others.



                The difference between realisations of /i:/ and /ɪ/



                Despite the fact that /i:/ for most speakers will be consistently and reliably longer than /ɪ/ in the same situation, this is not the most significant difference between the realisations of these two vowels. They are qualitatively different.



                Just behind your teeth, you can feel it with your tongue, there is a little shelf that slopes slightly upwards. This is your alveolar ridge. Behind this, your mouth suddenly arches upwards to form the roof of your mouth. Now, if you feel just behind this ridge with your tongue you will be able to feel that this part of your mouth is hard and boney. This part of the roof of your mouth is your ʜᴀʀᴅ ᴘᴀʟᴀᴛᴇ. If you carry on exploring further backwards with the tip of your tongue (it gets a bit ticklish) you will feel that the roof of your mouth becomes soft and tissuey. This tissuey part of the roof of your mouth is your sᴏғᴛ ᴘᴀʟᴀᴛᴇ. This change happens about half way back.



                When most speakers make an /i:/, that part of their tongue directly below where your hard and soft palate meet rises up very close to the roof of the mouth. If you are an RP (Southern Standard British English) speaker, it will come so close to the roof of your mouth that if it got any closer, it would cause the air passing through to become turbulent and would effectively turn the sound into a consonant. If you speak General American, then the gap between your tongue and the roof of your mouth will be ever so slightly bigger.



                For most speakers, when they produce an /⁠ɪ/, the gap between their tongue and the roof of their mouths will be significantly bigger than it would be for /i:/. It will be nowhere near close enough to cause any turbulence. In addition that part of the tongue that will rise up towards the roof of the mouth will be some millimetres further back from that part that would rise up for /i:/.




                The Original Poster's partner



                It is important to realise that what I have described are typical realisations . So a given realisation of /i:/ might be lower than IPA [i], and a realisation of /ɪ/ might be higher or lower or more front or more back than IPA [ɪ]. (I haven't talked at all about the diphthongalisation of /i:/, because I'm not sure it is helpful here)



                The reason that the Original Poster (OP) can hear this difference in vowel quality, but their partner can't, is that in English this difference in vowel quality leads to a difference in meaning. So there are words in English which can be clearly distinguished solely because of this relatively very small difference in the highness and frontness of the vowel produced by a speaker.



                However, for a speaker of Greek, both of the sounds that might be produced by an English speaker aiming for /ɪ/ or /i:/ would be understood to be variations of the same Greek phoneme. It is extraordinarily rare for a language to have two separate high front vowels. Whether a (typical) Greek speaker listens to a pronunciation of /ɪ/ or /i:/, their language brain will map both sounds onto the Greek I phoneme. So, for example, the words piss and peace will both sound like the word πεις for a Greek speaker, which is the subjunctive of the verb say.



                However, if an English speaker wanted to help another non-native speaker hear the difference between the two vowels, there usually is a safe way to do so.



                A majority of languages have a high front vowel and a mid front vowel. For a vast majority of speakers these would be thought of as I and E respectively. The I vowel in these languages is typically between English /i:/ and /ɪ/. Greek happens to be one of these languages.



                If you want to help such a speaker hear the difference, show them that if you give them a triplet of words such as beat, bit, bet (/bi:t, bɪt, bet/, respectively), they will be able to hear that bit is closer to bet than beat is.




                Footnote:



                An interesting fact about the phonology of the word been : when it is stressed, or occasionaly when it's the last word in a sentence, it's pronounced /bi:n/—just like the word bean. However, it is usually neither stressed nor the last word in a sentence. In these circumstances, it is usually pronounced /bɪn/—just like the word bin. English is weird, isn't it?






                share|improve this answer



























                  3












                  3








                  3







                  enter image description here



                  No, the difference is not just—or even primarily—one of duration. Although in any given environment /i:/ wil be longer than /ɪ/, their environments radically affect their durations. Because of this, the realisation of /i:/ in some environments will be shorter than that of /ɪ/ in others.



                  The difference between realisations of /i:/ and /ɪ/



                  Despite the fact that /i:/ for most speakers will be consistently and reliably longer than /ɪ/ in the same situation, this is not the most significant difference between the realisations of these two vowels. They are qualitatively different.



                  Just behind your teeth, you can feel it with your tongue, there is a little shelf that slopes slightly upwards. This is your alveolar ridge. Behind this, your mouth suddenly arches upwards to form the roof of your mouth. Now, if you feel just behind this ridge with your tongue you will be able to feel that this part of your mouth is hard and boney. This part of the roof of your mouth is your ʜᴀʀᴅ ᴘᴀʟᴀᴛᴇ. If you carry on exploring further backwards with the tip of your tongue (it gets a bit ticklish) you will feel that the roof of your mouth becomes soft and tissuey. This tissuey part of the roof of your mouth is your sᴏғᴛ ᴘᴀʟᴀᴛᴇ. This change happens about half way back.



                  When most speakers make an /i:/, that part of their tongue directly below where your hard and soft palate meet rises up very close to the roof of the mouth. If you are an RP (Southern Standard British English) speaker, it will come so close to the roof of your mouth that if it got any closer, it would cause the air passing through to become turbulent and would effectively turn the sound into a consonant. If you speak General American, then the gap between your tongue and the roof of your mouth will be ever so slightly bigger.



                  For most speakers, when they produce an /⁠ɪ/, the gap between their tongue and the roof of their mouths will be significantly bigger than it would be for /i:/. It will be nowhere near close enough to cause any turbulence. In addition that part of the tongue that will rise up towards the roof of the mouth will be some millimetres further back from that part that would rise up for /i:/.




                  The Original Poster's partner



                  It is important to realise that what I have described are typical realisations . So a given realisation of /i:/ might be lower than IPA [i], and a realisation of /ɪ/ might be higher or lower or more front or more back than IPA [ɪ]. (I haven't talked at all about the diphthongalisation of /i:/, because I'm not sure it is helpful here)



                  The reason that the Original Poster (OP) can hear this difference in vowel quality, but their partner can't, is that in English this difference in vowel quality leads to a difference in meaning. So there are words in English which can be clearly distinguished solely because of this relatively very small difference in the highness and frontness of the vowel produced by a speaker.



                  However, for a speaker of Greek, both of the sounds that might be produced by an English speaker aiming for /ɪ/ or /i:/ would be understood to be variations of the same Greek phoneme. It is extraordinarily rare for a language to have two separate high front vowels. Whether a (typical) Greek speaker listens to a pronunciation of /ɪ/ or /i:/, their language brain will map both sounds onto the Greek I phoneme. So, for example, the words piss and peace will both sound like the word πεις for a Greek speaker, which is the subjunctive of the verb say.



                  However, if an English speaker wanted to help another non-native speaker hear the difference between the two vowels, there usually is a safe way to do so.



                  A majority of languages have a high front vowel and a mid front vowel. For a vast majority of speakers these would be thought of as I and E respectively. The I vowel in these languages is typically between English /i:/ and /ɪ/. Greek happens to be one of these languages.



                  If you want to help such a speaker hear the difference, show them that if you give them a triplet of words such as beat, bit, bet (/bi:t, bɪt, bet/, respectively), they will be able to hear that bit is closer to bet than beat is.




                  Footnote:



                  An interesting fact about the phonology of the word been : when it is stressed, or occasionaly when it's the last word in a sentence, it's pronounced /bi:n/—just like the word bean. However, it is usually neither stressed nor the last word in a sentence. In these circumstances, it is usually pronounced /bɪn/—just like the word bin. English is weird, isn't it?






                  share|improve this answer















                  enter image description here



                  No, the difference is not just—or even primarily—one of duration. Although in any given environment /i:/ wil be longer than /ɪ/, their environments radically affect their durations. Because of this, the realisation of /i:/ in some environments will be shorter than that of /ɪ/ in others.



                  The difference between realisations of /i:/ and /ɪ/



                  Despite the fact that /i:/ for most speakers will be consistently and reliably longer than /ɪ/ in the same situation, this is not the most significant difference between the realisations of these two vowels. They are qualitatively different.



                  Just behind your teeth, you can feel it with your tongue, there is a little shelf that slopes slightly upwards. This is your alveolar ridge. Behind this, your mouth suddenly arches upwards to form the roof of your mouth. Now, if you feel just behind this ridge with your tongue you will be able to feel that this part of your mouth is hard and boney. This part of the roof of your mouth is your ʜᴀʀᴅ ᴘᴀʟᴀᴛᴇ. If you carry on exploring further backwards with the tip of your tongue (it gets a bit ticklish) you will feel that the roof of your mouth becomes soft and tissuey. This tissuey part of the roof of your mouth is your sᴏғᴛ ᴘᴀʟᴀᴛᴇ. This change happens about half way back.



                  When most speakers make an /i:/, that part of their tongue directly below where your hard and soft palate meet rises up very close to the roof of the mouth. If you are an RP (Southern Standard British English) speaker, it will come so close to the roof of your mouth that if it got any closer, it would cause the air passing through to become turbulent and would effectively turn the sound into a consonant. If you speak General American, then the gap between your tongue and the roof of your mouth will be ever so slightly bigger.



                  For most speakers, when they produce an /⁠ɪ/, the gap between their tongue and the roof of their mouths will be significantly bigger than it would be for /i:/. It will be nowhere near close enough to cause any turbulence. In addition that part of the tongue that will rise up towards the roof of the mouth will be some millimetres further back from that part that would rise up for /i:/.




                  The Original Poster's partner



                  It is important to realise that what I have described are typical realisations . So a given realisation of /i:/ might be lower than IPA [i], and a realisation of /ɪ/ might be higher or lower or more front or more back than IPA [ɪ]. (I haven't talked at all about the diphthongalisation of /i:/, because I'm not sure it is helpful here)



                  The reason that the Original Poster (OP) can hear this difference in vowel quality, but their partner can't, is that in English this difference in vowel quality leads to a difference in meaning. So there are words in English which can be clearly distinguished solely because of this relatively very small difference in the highness and frontness of the vowel produced by a speaker.



                  However, for a speaker of Greek, both of the sounds that might be produced by an English speaker aiming for /ɪ/ or /i:/ would be understood to be variations of the same Greek phoneme. It is extraordinarily rare for a language to have two separate high front vowels. Whether a (typical) Greek speaker listens to a pronunciation of /ɪ/ or /i:/, their language brain will map both sounds onto the Greek I phoneme. So, for example, the words piss and peace will both sound like the word πεις for a Greek speaker, which is the subjunctive of the verb say.



                  However, if an English speaker wanted to help another non-native speaker hear the difference between the two vowels, there usually is a safe way to do so.



                  A majority of languages have a high front vowel and a mid front vowel. For a vast majority of speakers these would be thought of as I and E respectively. The I vowel in these languages is typically between English /i:/ and /ɪ/. Greek happens to be one of these languages.



                  If you want to help such a speaker hear the difference, show them that if you give them a triplet of words such as beat, bit, bet (/bi:t, bɪt, bet/, respectively), they will be able to hear that bit is closer to bet than beat is.




                  Footnote:



                  An interesting fact about the phonology of the word been : when it is stressed, or occasionaly when it's the last word in a sentence, it's pronounced /bi:n/—just like the word bean. However, it is usually neither stressed nor the last word in a sentence. In these circumstances, it is usually pronounced /bɪn/—just like the word bin. English is weird, isn't it?







                  share|improve this answer














                  share|improve this answer



                  share|improve this answer








                  edited 16 hours ago

























                  answered 2 days ago









                  AraucariaAraucaria

                  1,326626




                  1,326626



























                      draft saved

                      draft discarded
















































                      Thanks for contributing an answer to Linguistics Stack Exchange!


                      • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

                      But avoid


                      • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

                      • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.

                      To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




                      draft saved


                      draft discarded














                      StackExchange.ready(
                      function ()
                      StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2flinguistics.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f30886%2fwhats-the-difference-between-%25c9%25aa-and-i%25cb%2590%23new-answer', 'question_page');

                      );

                      Post as a guest















                      Required, but never shown





















































                      Required, but never shown














                      Required, but never shown












                      Required, but never shown







                      Required, but never shown

































                      Required, but never shown














                      Required, but never shown












                      Required, but never shown







                      Required, but never shown