Is an up-to-date browser secure on an out-of-date OS?Why should browser security be prioritized?What are some examples of viruses/exploits with benevolent purposes?Is Google Chrome a more secure browser?If someone steals my laptop while I'm logged in, how can I protect my browser?Secure information exchange between web applications using browser redirectionSecure browser storageWhat is the most secure operating system out there?HTTPS icon red and crossed out - Chrome browserIs browser side encryption realistically secure?Chrome + EMET= How Strong Realistic Protection Against Browser-Based Threats?How secure is “Browser in the Box”?Risk of infecting the host OS if the guest OS is out of date
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Is an up-to-date browser secure on an out-of-date OS?
Why should browser security be prioritized?What are some examples of viruses/exploits with benevolent purposes?Is Google Chrome a more secure browser?If someone steals my laptop while I'm logged in, how can I protect my browser?Secure information exchange between web applications using browser redirectionSecure browser storageWhat is the most secure operating system out there?HTTPS icon red and crossed out - Chrome browserIs browser side encryption realistically secure?Chrome + EMET= How Strong Realistic Protection Against Browser-Based Threats?How secure is “Browser in the Box”?Risk of infecting the host OS if the guest OS is out of date
.everyoneloves__top-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__mid-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__bot-mid-leaderboard:empty margin-bottom:0;
Windows 7 support will end on January 14, 2020. Assuming that after that day I still use an updated browser, is it true that I'm still safe? Can it "patch" the OS-based security holes?
Minor question: typically, how long would the browsers stop supporting abandoned OS? Is there any number on this?
Related: Why should browser security be prioritized?
FYI: Attack surface - Wikipedia
web-browser appsec operating-systems attack-vector windows-7
asked Apr 10 at 2:17
OokerOoker
9041913
|
show 13 more comments
Windows 7 support will end on January 14, 2020. Assuming that after that day I still use an updated browser, is it true that I'm still safe? Can it "patch" the OS-based security holes?
Minor question: typically, how long would the browsers stop supporting abandoned OS? Is there any number on this?
Related: Why should browser security be prioritized?
FYI: Attack surface - Wikipedia
web-browser appsec operating-systems attack-vector windows-7
asked Apr 10 at 2:17
OokerOoker
9041913
12
Why not just install Windows 10? It's a pain, but you can disable the privacy-violating "telemetry" features and change the desktop to look more like that of 7. Windows 10 has significantly superior security anyways.
– forest
Apr 10 at 3:00
26
Perhaps you should consider switching to a popular Linux distribution like Ubuntu then. It's secure, privacy-friendly, and works very well on a wide-variety of hardware (even old hardware).
– forest
Apr 10 at 4:31
10
unfortunately, I need Windows programs (AutoHotKey, ShareX, ManicTime). Libre Office can replace MS Office, but it's buggy for large files
– Ooker
Apr 10 at 4:52
7
Wine works for many programs, and there are good (sometimes superior) alternatives to many Windows-native programs that are incompatible with Wine. I suppose you'll have to decide whether or not it's important enough for you to buy a new computer (and continue to do so every few years).
– forest
Apr 10 at 5:07
11
in fact windows 10 should often be smoother on the same specs compared to Windows 7 because of several improvements like user-space font rendering (which means less context switches → lower Meltdown impact), compressed memory (like zram on Linux) which significantly enhances responsiveness on systems with low memory
– phuclv
Apr 10 at 16:12
|
show 13 more comments
Windows 7 support will end on January 14, 2020. Assuming that after that day I still use an updated browser, is it true that I'm still safe? Can it "patch" the OS-based security holes?
Minor question: typically, how long would the browsers stop supporting abandoned OS? Is there any number on this?
Related: Why should browser security be prioritized?
FYI: Attack surface - Wikipedia
web-browser appsec operating-systems attack-vector windows-7
asked Apr 10 at 2:17
OokerOoker
9041913
Windows 7 support will end on January 14, 2020. Assuming that after that day I still use an updated browser, is it true that I'm still safe? Can it "patch" the OS-based security holes?
Minor question: typically, how long would the browsers stop supporting abandoned OS? Is there any number on this?
Related: Why should browser security be prioritized?
FYI: Attack surface - Wikipedia
web-browser appsec operating-systems attack-vector windows-7
web-browser appsec operating-systems attack-vector windows-7
asked Apr 10 at 2:17
OokerOoker
9041913
asked Apr 10 at 2:17
OokerOoker
9041913
edited Apr 11 at 1:22
Ooker
asked Apr 10 at 2:17
OokerOoker
9041913
asked Apr 10 at 2:17
OokerOoker
9041913
asked Apr 10 at 2:17
OokerOoker
9041913
9041913
12
Why not just install Windows 10? It's a pain, but you can disable the privacy-violating "telemetry" features and change the desktop to look more like that of 7. Windows 10 has significantly superior security anyways.
– forest
Apr 10 at 3:00
26
Perhaps you should consider switching to a popular Linux distribution like Ubuntu then. It's secure, privacy-friendly, and works very well on a wide-variety of hardware (even old hardware).
– forest
Apr 10 at 4:31
10
unfortunately, I need Windows programs (AutoHotKey, ShareX, ManicTime). Libre Office can replace MS Office, but it's buggy for large files
– Ooker
Apr 10 at 4:52
7
Wine works for many programs, and there are good (sometimes superior) alternatives to many Windows-native programs that are incompatible with Wine. I suppose you'll have to decide whether or not it's important enough for you to buy a new computer (and continue to do so every few years).
– forest
Apr 10 at 5:07
11
in fact windows 10 should often be smoother on the same specs compared to Windows 7 because of several improvements like user-space font rendering (which means less context switches → lower Meltdown impact), compressed memory (like zram on Linux) which significantly enhances responsiveness on systems with low memory
– phuclv
Apr 10 at 16:12
|
show 13 more comments
12
Why not just install Windows 10? It's a pain, but you can disable the privacy-violating "telemetry" features and change the desktop to look more like that of 7. Windows 10 has significantly superior security anyways.
– forest
Apr 10 at 3:00
26
Perhaps you should consider switching to a popular Linux distribution like Ubuntu then. It's secure, privacy-friendly, and works very well on a wide-variety of hardware (even old hardware).
– forest
Apr 10 at 4:31
10
unfortunately, I need Windows programs (AutoHotKey, ShareX, ManicTime). Libre Office can replace MS Office, but it's buggy for large files
– Ooker
Apr 10 at 4:52
7
Wine works for many programs, and there are good (sometimes superior) alternatives to many Windows-native programs that are incompatible with Wine. I suppose you'll have to decide whether or not it's important enough for you to buy a new computer (and continue to do so every few years).
– forest
Apr 10 at 5:07
11
in fact windows 10 should often be smoother on the same specs compared to Windows 7 because of several improvements like user-space font rendering (which means less context switches → lower Meltdown impact), compressed memory (like zram on Linux) which significantly enhances responsiveness on systems with low memory
– phuclv
Apr 10 at 16:12
12
12
Why not just install Windows 10? It's a pain, but you can disable the privacy-violating "telemetry" features and change the desktop to look more like that of 7. Windows 10 has significantly superior security anyways.
– forest
Apr 10 at 3:00
Why not just install Windows 10? It's a pain, but you can disable the privacy-violating "telemetry" features and change the desktop to look more like that of 7. Windows 10 has significantly superior security anyways.
– forest
Apr 10 at 3:00
26
26
Perhaps you should consider switching to a popular Linux distribution like Ubuntu then. It's secure, privacy-friendly, and works very well on a wide-variety of hardware (even old hardware).
– forest
Apr 10 at 4:31
Perhaps you should consider switching to a popular Linux distribution like Ubuntu then. It's secure, privacy-friendly, and works very well on a wide-variety of hardware (even old hardware).
– forest
Apr 10 at 4:31
10
10
unfortunately, I need Windows programs (AutoHotKey, ShareX, ManicTime). Libre Office can replace MS Office, but it's buggy for large files
– Ooker
Apr 10 at 4:52
unfortunately, I need Windows programs (AutoHotKey, ShareX, ManicTime). Libre Office can replace MS Office, but it's buggy for large files
– Ooker
Apr 10 at 4:52
7
7
Wine works for many programs, and there are good (sometimes superior) alternatives to many Windows-native programs that are incompatible with Wine. I suppose you'll have to decide whether or not it's important enough for you to buy a new computer (and continue to do so every few years).
– forest
Apr 10 at 5:07
Wine works for many programs, and there are good (sometimes superior) alternatives to many Windows-native programs that are incompatible with Wine. I suppose you'll have to decide whether or not it's important enough for you to buy a new computer (and continue to do so every few years).
– forest
Apr 10 at 5:07
11
11
in fact windows 10 should often be smoother on the same specs compared to Windows 7 because of several improvements like user-space font rendering (which means less context switches → lower Meltdown impact), compressed memory (like zram on Linux) which significantly enhances responsiveness on systems with low memory
– phuclv
Apr 10 at 16:12
in fact windows 10 should often be smoother on the same specs compared to Windows 7 because of several improvements like user-space font rendering (which means less context switches → lower Meltdown impact), compressed memory (like zram on Linux) which significantly enhances responsiveness on systems with low memory
– phuclv
Apr 10 at 16:12
|
show 13 more comments
4 Answers
4
active
oldest
votes
Do not use an outdated OS, even with a modern browser.
Assuming that after that day I still use an updated browser, is it true that I'm still safe?
No, you cannot avoid browser-based security holes only by updating the browser. There are a few reasons for this. Primarily, the browser is not entirely self-contained. It makes use of operating system libraries, for example the system memory allocator. This allocator is designed to mitigate various memory corruption-related security issues. If the allocator is not kept up to date, memory exploitation bugs may be easier to perform against the browser, no matter how up to date the browser is.
Another reason is that browser security often relies on OS sandboxing features. A powerful browser exploit must be combined with a so-called sandbox escape. How easy that escape is depends on how secure the operating system is as well as how secure the browser is. By using an outdated operating system, your browser is being protected by out of date and potentially vulnerable security features.
Can it "patch" the OS-based security holes?
No. Patching operating system vulnerabilities requires elevated privileges, which a browser does not have. Even if it did, browsers are not designed to modify system settings or system files. There is no extension or web page you can go to that is able to patch security vulnerabilities in your OS.
Minor question: typically, how long would the browsers stop supporting abandoned OS?
Browser vendors typically publish when they will stop officially supporting a particular operating system. After that point, changes made to the browser that break on older systems will no longer be considered bugs and may not be fixed. Programs typically continue running on older systems for a very long time, however. They only stop working when they begin to rely on newer system APIs that aren't present in older versions. This is relatively rare. A browser should be able to run on an outdated operating system for many years, albeit not very securely, and without official support from the vendor. Most likely, as it begins to rely on newer and newer APIs, features in the browser will just start breaking one by one (especially security-related features) until it eventually does not start up at all.
answered Apr 10 at 2:53
forestforest
40.8k18131147
14
Re: "There is no extension or web page you can go to that is able to patch security vulnerabilities in your OS". Well... There might be. But they would likely end up patching whatever security vulnerability allowed them to work in the first place.
– DreamConspiracy
Apr 10 at 8:03
6
In addition to the memory allocator example you give: The browser uses the OS networking stack, which might have vulnerabilities. Above that, the browser might use the OS implementation of TLS.
– Roger Lipscombe
Apr 10 at 10:28
6
@Ooker I believe there have been instances where attackers (who in the cases I'm thinking of, were believed to be nation state actors) compromised a high-value system, then applied the necessary security updates to the system to prevent anyone else compromising it (presumably because they were worried about other nation state actors).
– James_pic
Apr 10 at 11:51
8
@james I don't think we have to go that far (state sponsored malware). It's common for standard malware to patch the system after they've gotten access. Why share your valuable infected system with someone else?
– Voo
Apr 10 at 15:00
6
Browsers stop supporting abandoned OS' long before they actually stop working. Chrome Supports Windows 7, IE Supports Windows 8.1, and Firefox Supports Windows 7
– Mooing Duck
Apr 10 at 19:34
|
show 10 more comments
One benefit of the newer operating systems, like Windows 10 over Windows 7, is that they have more advanced features built in to the operating system to protect against entire classes of vulnerabilities.
There have actually been examples of web browsers being more secure on Windows 10 than Windows 7 even though Windows 7 is still supported! See for example this Google security vulnerability disclosure.
There was a vulnerability in Chrome, but Google's researchers believe that it was only exploitable in Windows 7 due to an additional vulnerability in that version of Windows. The additional protections in Windows 10 protected the system despite the browser vulnerability.
To answer your question about how long the browser will support legacy operating systems: Firefox for example supported Windows XP and Windows Vista until June 2018, which was well after the end of support dates for those operating systems (2014 and 2017 respectively). In their announcement, they claim to have ended support because the operating systems had known exploits which made it difficult to maintain Firefox.
Chrome supported Windows XP and Vista until version 50, which came out in April 2016 (they stopped supporting Vista before Microsoft did!)
answered Apr 10 at 16:23
kepstinkepstin
1212
add a comment |
Oh goodie a surface area question.
The surface area of attacks against the OS via the browser varies wildly with the browser. With Internet Explorer, the surface area is vast. On the other hand, Firefox mostly uses its own decoders for everything, crushing the surface area down to only a few pieces. In any case, the TCP stack, DNS, and the font rendering engine remain attack targets. It is unwise to assume the attacker will not select a vulnerability that will actually work, and I see GDI+ remote code execution vulnerabilities every few months almost like clockwork.
Don't do it man. At least not on Windows. On Linux we can do exotic things that make shellcode not work that would at least make the attacker have to target you specifically. But if you haven't done them don't do it on Linux either.
answered Apr 10 at 23:06
JoshuaJoshua
79548
why can we make shellcode not working on Linux but not on Windows?
– Ooker
Apr 11 at 1:24
2
@Ooker: We can preventexecve()from working byptrace()or LSM or something more exotic. We can also move the syscall gate but that doesn't block everything.
– Joshua
Apr 11 at 1:57
1
@Joshua Shellcode from a browser exploit doesn't need to useexecve(). And I guess you could change the syscall numbers but that would require patching your libc and adjusting all manual assembly that invokes syscalls. Not to mention, it'd be totally useless if the shellcode abused a library call.
– forest
Apr 11 at 6:13
add a comment |
Answer:
Browsers are a big surface-area for security flaws and are a common source of bugs and weaknesses. While 'up-to-date' and 'secure' are not the same thing at all, having a robust browser will lower your exposure significantly, and in general newer (at the very least) means there will be fewer exploits 'in use' that will effect you. So yes this helps, and if it's the only way in to you system and if it behaves itself, then the OS only needs to behave in a sane way to prevent you from being exposed (sane in a way all likely OSs are).
However:
Browsers are not the only source of security issues. There is nothing it can do to protect you from anything other than itself and in a compromised system the browser could be too.
OS level protections while not as good as not-having-the-bug-in-the-first-place and limit the damage of a bug.
Hence:
- What you use the machine for and what services it has running etc will significantly effect the other risks and hence the answer to your question. If there are lots of other risky targets open and listening, how good your browser is might not be very relevant at all.
Advice:
The accepted wisdom (in these parts) and the advice people line up to give is:
"More security is more better, and more newer is more security.", which in this case translates to "Update your OS too".
Both are reasonable in my opinion and I wouldn't council against updating. But:
- It's not a silver bullet: no-one is ever 100% safe.
- There is potentially a trade-off against other things like convenience (which are often wrongly overlooked).
- There's always a slim possibility updating leads to you using Windows-10, and nobody wants that...
answered Apr 10 at 16:24
ANoneANone
2093
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
– Rory Alsop♦
Apr 15 at 10:51
add a comment |
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4 Answers
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active
oldest
votes
4 Answers
4
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
Do not use an outdated OS, even with a modern browser.
Assuming that after that day I still use an updated browser, is it true that I'm still safe?
No, you cannot avoid browser-based security holes only by updating the browser. There are a few reasons for this. Primarily, the browser is not entirely self-contained. It makes use of operating system libraries, for example the system memory allocator. This allocator is designed to mitigate various memory corruption-related security issues. If the allocator is not kept up to date, memory exploitation bugs may be easier to perform against the browser, no matter how up to date the browser is.
Another reason is that browser security often relies on OS sandboxing features. A powerful browser exploit must be combined with a so-called sandbox escape. How easy that escape is depends on how secure the operating system is as well as how secure the browser is. By using an outdated operating system, your browser is being protected by out of date and potentially vulnerable security features.
Can it "patch" the OS-based security holes?
No. Patching operating system vulnerabilities requires elevated privileges, which a browser does not have. Even if it did, browsers are not designed to modify system settings or system files. There is no extension or web page you can go to that is able to patch security vulnerabilities in your OS.
Minor question: typically, how long would the browsers stop supporting abandoned OS?
Browser vendors typically publish when they will stop officially supporting a particular operating system. After that point, changes made to the browser that break on older systems will no longer be considered bugs and may not be fixed. Programs typically continue running on older systems for a very long time, however. They only stop working when they begin to rely on newer system APIs that aren't present in older versions. This is relatively rare. A browser should be able to run on an outdated operating system for many years, albeit not very securely, and without official support from the vendor. Most likely, as it begins to rely on newer and newer APIs, features in the browser will just start breaking one by one (especially security-related features) until it eventually does not start up at all.
answered Apr 10 at 2:53
forestforest
40.8k18131147
14
Re: "There is no extension or web page you can go to that is able to patch security vulnerabilities in your OS". Well... There might be. But they would likely end up patching whatever security vulnerability allowed them to work in the first place.
– DreamConspiracy
Apr 10 at 8:03
6
In addition to the memory allocator example you give: The browser uses the OS networking stack, which might have vulnerabilities. Above that, the browser might use the OS implementation of TLS.
– Roger Lipscombe
Apr 10 at 10:28
6
@Ooker I believe there have been instances where attackers (who in the cases I'm thinking of, were believed to be nation state actors) compromised a high-value system, then applied the necessary security updates to the system to prevent anyone else compromising it (presumably because they were worried about other nation state actors).
– James_pic
Apr 10 at 11:51
8
@james I don't think we have to go that far (state sponsored malware). It's common for standard malware to patch the system after they've gotten access. Why share your valuable infected system with someone else?
– Voo
Apr 10 at 15:00
6
Browsers stop supporting abandoned OS' long before they actually stop working. Chrome Supports Windows 7, IE Supports Windows 8.1, and Firefox Supports Windows 7
– Mooing Duck
Apr 10 at 19:34
|
show 10 more comments
Do not use an outdated OS, even with a modern browser.
Assuming that after that day I still use an updated browser, is it true that I'm still safe?
No, you cannot avoid browser-based security holes only by updating the browser. There are a few reasons for this. Primarily, the browser is not entirely self-contained. It makes use of operating system libraries, for example the system memory allocator. This allocator is designed to mitigate various memory corruption-related security issues. If the allocator is not kept up to date, memory exploitation bugs may be easier to perform against the browser, no matter how up to date the browser is.
Another reason is that browser security often relies on OS sandboxing features. A powerful browser exploit must be combined with a so-called sandbox escape. How easy that escape is depends on how secure the operating system is as well as how secure the browser is. By using an outdated operating system, your browser is being protected by out of date and potentially vulnerable security features.
Can it "patch" the OS-based security holes?
No. Patching operating system vulnerabilities requires elevated privileges, which a browser does not have. Even if it did, browsers are not designed to modify system settings or system files. There is no extension or web page you can go to that is able to patch security vulnerabilities in your OS.
Minor question: typically, how long would the browsers stop supporting abandoned OS?
Browser vendors typically publish when they will stop officially supporting a particular operating system. After that point, changes made to the browser that break on older systems will no longer be considered bugs and may not be fixed. Programs typically continue running on older systems for a very long time, however. They only stop working when they begin to rely on newer system APIs that aren't present in older versions. This is relatively rare. A browser should be able to run on an outdated operating system for many years, albeit not very securely, and without official support from the vendor. Most likely, as it begins to rely on newer and newer APIs, features in the browser will just start breaking one by one (especially security-related features) until it eventually does not start up at all.
answered Apr 10 at 2:53
forestforest
40.8k18131147
14
Re: "There is no extension or web page you can go to that is able to patch security vulnerabilities in your OS". Well... There might be. But they would likely end up patching whatever security vulnerability allowed them to work in the first place.
– DreamConspiracy
Apr 10 at 8:03
6
In addition to the memory allocator example you give: The browser uses the OS networking stack, which might have vulnerabilities. Above that, the browser might use the OS implementation of TLS.
– Roger Lipscombe
Apr 10 at 10:28
6
@Ooker I believe there have been instances where attackers (who in the cases I'm thinking of, were believed to be nation state actors) compromised a high-value system, then applied the necessary security updates to the system to prevent anyone else compromising it (presumably because they were worried about other nation state actors).
– James_pic
Apr 10 at 11:51
8
@james I don't think we have to go that far (state sponsored malware). It's common for standard malware to patch the system after they've gotten access. Why share your valuable infected system with someone else?
– Voo
Apr 10 at 15:00
6
Browsers stop supporting abandoned OS' long before they actually stop working. Chrome Supports Windows 7, IE Supports Windows 8.1, and Firefox Supports Windows 7
– Mooing Duck
Apr 10 at 19:34
|
show 10 more comments
Do not use an outdated OS, even with a modern browser.
Assuming that after that day I still use an updated browser, is it true that I'm still safe?
No, you cannot avoid browser-based security holes only by updating the browser. There are a few reasons for this. Primarily, the browser is not entirely self-contained. It makes use of operating system libraries, for example the system memory allocator. This allocator is designed to mitigate various memory corruption-related security issues. If the allocator is not kept up to date, memory exploitation bugs may be easier to perform against the browser, no matter how up to date the browser is.
Another reason is that browser security often relies on OS sandboxing features. A powerful browser exploit must be combined with a so-called sandbox escape. How easy that escape is depends on how secure the operating system is as well as how secure the browser is. By using an outdated operating system, your browser is being protected by out of date and potentially vulnerable security features.
Can it "patch" the OS-based security holes?
No. Patching operating system vulnerabilities requires elevated privileges, which a browser does not have. Even if it did, browsers are not designed to modify system settings or system files. There is no extension or web page you can go to that is able to patch security vulnerabilities in your OS.
Minor question: typically, how long would the browsers stop supporting abandoned OS?
Browser vendors typically publish when they will stop officially supporting a particular operating system. After that point, changes made to the browser that break on older systems will no longer be considered bugs and may not be fixed. Programs typically continue running on older systems for a very long time, however. They only stop working when they begin to rely on newer system APIs that aren't present in older versions. This is relatively rare. A browser should be able to run on an outdated operating system for many years, albeit not very securely, and without official support from the vendor. Most likely, as it begins to rely on newer and newer APIs, features in the browser will just start breaking one by one (especially security-related features) until it eventually does not start up at all.
answered Apr 10 at 2:53
forestforest
40.8k18131147
Do not use an outdated OS, even with a modern browser.
Assuming that after that day I still use an updated browser, is it true that I'm still safe?
No, you cannot avoid browser-based security holes only by updating the browser. There are a few reasons for this. Primarily, the browser is not entirely self-contained. It makes use of operating system libraries, for example the system memory allocator. This allocator is designed to mitigate various memory corruption-related security issues. If the allocator is not kept up to date, memory exploitation bugs may be easier to perform against the browser, no matter how up to date the browser is.
Another reason is that browser security often relies on OS sandboxing features. A powerful browser exploit must be combined with a so-called sandbox escape. How easy that escape is depends on how secure the operating system is as well as how secure the browser is. By using an outdated operating system, your browser is being protected by out of date and potentially vulnerable security features.
Can it "patch" the OS-based security holes?
No. Patching operating system vulnerabilities requires elevated privileges, which a browser does not have. Even if it did, browsers are not designed to modify system settings or system files. There is no extension or web page you can go to that is able to patch security vulnerabilities in your OS.
Minor question: typically, how long would the browsers stop supporting abandoned OS?
Browser vendors typically publish when they will stop officially supporting a particular operating system. After that point, changes made to the browser that break on older systems will no longer be considered bugs and may not be fixed. Programs typically continue running on older systems for a very long time, however. They only stop working when they begin to rely on newer system APIs that aren't present in older versions. This is relatively rare. A browser should be able to run on an outdated operating system for many years, albeit not very securely, and without official support from the vendor. Most likely, as it begins to rely on newer and newer APIs, features in the browser will just start breaking one by one (especially security-related features) until it eventually does not start up at all.
answered Apr 10 at 2:53
forestforest
40.8k18131147
edited Apr 12 at 18:39
answered Apr 10 at 2:53
forestforest
40.8k18131147
answered Apr 10 at 2:53
forestforest
40.8k18131147
answered Apr 10 at 2:53
forestforest
40.8k18131147
40.8k18131147
14
Re: "There is no extension or web page you can go to that is able to patch security vulnerabilities in your OS". Well... There might be. But they would likely end up patching whatever security vulnerability allowed them to work in the first place.
– DreamConspiracy
Apr 10 at 8:03
6
In addition to the memory allocator example you give: The browser uses the OS networking stack, which might have vulnerabilities. Above that, the browser might use the OS implementation of TLS.
– Roger Lipscombe
Apr 10 at 10:28
6
@Ooker I believe there have been instances where attackers (who in the cases I'm thinking of, were believed to be nation state actors) compromised a high-value system, then applied the necessary security updates to the system to prevent anyone else compromising it (presumably because they were worried about other nation state actors).
– James_pic
Apr 10 at 11:51
8
@james I don't think we have to go that far (state sponsored malware). It's common for standard malware to patch the system after they've gotten access. Why share your valuable infected system with someone else?
– Voo
Apr 10 at 15:00
6
Browsers stop supporting abandoned OS' long before they actually stop working. Chrome Supports Windows 7, IE Supports Windows 8.1, and Firefox Supports Windows 7
– Mooing Duck
Apr 10 at 19:34
|
show 10 more comments
14
Re: "There is no extension or web page you can go to that is able to patch security vulnerabilities in your OS". Well... There might be. But they would likely end up patching whatever security vulnerability allowed them to work in the first place.
– DreamConspiracy
Apr 10 at 8:03
6
In addition to the memory allocator example you give: The browser uses the OS networking stack, which might have vulnerabilities. Above that, the browser might use the OS implementation of TLS.
– Roger Lipscombe
Apr 10 at 10:28
6
@Ooker I believe there have been instances where attackers (who in the cases I'm thinking of, were believed to be nation state actors) compromised a high-value system, then applied the necessary security updates to the system to prevent anyone else compromising it (presumably because they were worried about other nation state actors).
– James_pic
Apr 10 at 11:51
8
@james I don't think we have to go that far (state sponsored malware). It's common for standard malware to patch the system after they've gotten access. Why share your valuable infected system with someone else?
– Voo
Apr 10 at 15:00
6
Browsers stop supporting abandoned OS' long before they actually stop working. Chrome Supports Windows 7, IE Supports Windows 8.1, and Firefox Supports Windows 7
– Mooing Duck
Apr 10 at 19:34
14
14
Re: "There is no extension or web page you can go to that is able to patch security vulnerabilities in your OS". Well... There might be. But they would likely end up patching whatever security vulnerability allowed them to work in the first place.
– DreamConspiracy
Apr 10 at 8:03
Re: "There is no extension or web page you can go to that is able to patch security vulnerabilities in your OS". Well... There might be. But they would likely end up patching whatever security vulnerability allowed them to work in the first place.
– DreamConspiracy
Apr 10 at 8:03
6
6
In addition to the memory allocator example you give: The browser uses the OS networking stack, which might have vulnerabilities. Above that, the browser might use the OS implementation of TLS.
– Roger Lipscombe
Apr 10 at 10:28
In addition to the memory allocator example you give: The browser uses the OS networking stack, which might have vulnerabilities. Above that, the browser might use the OS implementation of TLS.
– Roger Lipscombe
Apr 10 at 10:28
6
6
@Ooker I believe there have been instances where attackers (who in the cases I'm thinking of, were believed to be nation state actors) compromised a high-value system, then applied the necessary security updates to the system to prevent anyone else compromising it (presumably because they were worried about other nation state actors).
– James_pic
Apr 10 at 11:51
@Ooker I believe there have been instances where attackers (who in the cases I'm thinking of, were believed to be nation state actors) compromised a high-value system, then applied the necessary security updates to the system to prevent anyone else compromising it (presumably because they were worried about other nation state actors).
– James_pic
Apr 10 at 11:51
8
8
@james I don't think we have to go that far (state sponsored malware). It's common for standard malware to patch the system after they've gotten access. Why share your valuable infected system with someone else?
– Voo
Apr 10 at 15:00
@james I don't think we have to go that far (state sponsored malware). It's common for standard malware to patch the system after they've gotten access. Why share your valuable infected system with someone else?
– Voo
Apr 10 at 15:00
6
6
Browsers stop supporting abandoned OS' long before they actually stop working. Chrome Supports Windows 7, IE Supports Windows 8.1, and Firefox Supports Windows 7
– Mooing Duck
Apr 10 at 19:34
Browsers stop supporting abandoned OS' long before they actually stop working. Chrome Supports Windows 7, IE Supports Windows 8.1, and Firefox Supports Windows 7
– Mooing Duck
Apr 10 at 19:34
|
show 10 more comments
One benefit of the newer operating systems, like Windows 10 over Windows 7, is that they have more advanced features built in to the operating system to protect against entire classes of vulnerabilities.
There have actually been examples of web browsers being more secure on Windows 10 than Windows 7 even though Windows 7 is still supported! See for example this Google security vulnerability disclosure.
There was a vulnerability in Chrome, but Google's researchers believe that it was only exploitable in Windows 7 due to an additional vulnerability in that version of Windows. The additional protections in Windows 10 protected the system despite the browser vulnerability.
To answer your question about how long the browser will support legacy operating systems: Firefox for example supported Windows XP and Windows Vista until June 2018, which was well after the end of support dates for those operating systems (2014 and 2017 respectively). In their announcement, they claim to have ended support because the operating systems had known exploits which made it difficult to maintain Firefox.
Chrome supported Windows XP and Vista until version 50, which came out in April 2016 (they stopped supporting Vista before Microsoft did!)
answered Apr 10 at 16:23
kepstinkepstin
1212
add a comment |
One benefit of the newer operating systems, like Windows 10 over Windows 7, is that they have more advanced features built in to the operating system to protect against entire classes of vulnerabilities.
There have actually been examples of web browsers being more secure on Windows 10 than Windows 7 even though Windows 7 is still supported! See for example this Google security vulnerability disclosure.
There was a vulnerability in Chrome, but Google's researchers believe that it was only exploitable in Windows 7 due to an additional vulnerability in that version of Windows. The additional protections in Windows 10 protected the system despite the browser vulnerability.
To answer your question about how long the browser will support legacy operating systems: Firefox for example supported Windows XP and Windows Vista until June 2018, which was well after the end of support dates for those operating systems (2014 and 2017 respectively). In their announcement, they claim to have ended support because the operating systems had known exploits which made it difficult to maintain Firefox.
Chrome supported Windows XP and Vista until version 50, which came out in April 2016 (they stopped supporting Vista before Microsoft did!)
answered Apr 10 at 16:23
kepstinkepstin
1212
add a comment |
One benefit of the newer operating systems, like Windows 10 over Windows 7, is that they have more advanced features built in to the operating system to protect against entire classes of vulnerabilities.
There have actually been examples of web browsers being more secure on Windows 10 than Windows 7 even though Windows 7 is still supported! See for example this Google security vulnerability disclosure.
There was a vulnerability in Chrome, but Google's researchers believe that it was only exploitable in Windows 7 due to an additional vulnerability in that version of Windows. The additional protections in Windows 10 protected the system despite the browser vulnerability.
To answer your question about how long the browser will support legacy operating systems: Firefox for example supported Windows XP and Windows Vista until June 2018, which was well after the end of support dates for those operating systems (2014 and 2017 respectively). In their announcement, they claim to have ended support because the operating systems had known exploits which made it difficult to maintain Firefox.
Chrome supported Windows XP and Vista until version 50, which came out in April 2016 (they stopped supporting Vista before Microsoft did!)
answered Apr 10 at 16:23
kepstinkepstin
1212
One benefit of the newer operating systems, like Windows 10 over Windows 7, is that they have more advanced features built in to the operating system to protect against entire classes of vulnerabilities.
There have actually been examples of web browsers being more secure on Windows 10 than Windows 7 even though Windows 7 is still supported! See for example this Google security vulnerability disclosure.
There was a vulnerability in Chrome, but Google's researchers believe that it was only exploitable in Windows 7 due to an additional vulnerability in that version of Windows. The additional protections in Windows 10 protected the system despite the browser vulnerability.
To answer your question about how long the browser will support legacy operating systems: Firefox for example supported Windows XP and Windows Vista until June 2018, which was well after the end of support dates for those operating systems (2014 and 2017 respectively). In their announcement, they claim to have ended support because the operating systems had known exploits which made it difficult to maintain Firefox.
Chrome supported Windows XP and Vista until version 50, which came out in April 2016 (they stopped supporting Vista before Microsoft did!)
answered Apr 10 at 16:23
kepstinkepstin
1212
answered Apr 10 at 16:23
kepstinkepstin
1212
answered Apr 10 at 16:23
kepstinkepstin
1212
answered Apr 10 at 16:23
kepstinkepstin
1212
1212
add a comment |
add a comment |
Oh goodie a surface area question.
The surface area of attacks against the OS via the browser varies wildly with the browser. With Internet Explorer, the surface area is vast. On the other hand, Firefox mostly uses its own decoders for everything, crushing the surface area down to only a few pieces. In any case, the TCP stack, DNS, and the font rendering engine remain attack targets. It is unwise to assume the attacker will not select a vulnerability that will actually work, and I see GDI+ remote code execution vulnerabilities every few months almost like clockwork.
Don't do it man. At least not on Windows. On Linux we can do exotic things that make shellcode not work that would at least make the attacker have to target you specifically. But if you haven't done them don't do it on Linux either.
answered Apr 10 at 23:06
JoshuaJoshua
79548
why can we make shellcode not working on Linux but not on Windows?
– Ooker
Apr 11 at 1:24
2
@Ooker: We can preventexecve()from working byptrace()or LSM or something more exotic. We can also move the syscall gate but that doesn't block everything.
– Joshua
Apr 11 at 1:57
1
@Joshua Shellcode from a browser exploit doesn't need to useexecve(). And I guess you could change the syscall numbers but that would require patching your libc and adjusting all manual assembly that invokes syscalls. Not to mention, it'd be totally useless if the shellcode abused a library call.
– forest
Apr 11 at 6:13
add a comment |
Oh goodie a surface area question.
The surface area of attacks against the OS via the browser varies wildly with the browser. With Internet Explorer, the surface area is vast. On the other hand, Firefox mostly uses its own decoders for everything, crushing the surface area down to only a few pieces. In any case, the TCP stack, DNS, and the font rendering engine remain attack targets. It is unwise to assume the attacker will not select a vulnerability that will actually work, and I see GDI+ remote code execution vulnerabilities every few months almost like clockwork.
Don't do it man. At least not on Windows. On Linux we can do exotic things that make shellcode not work that would at least make the attacker have to target you specifically. But if you haven't done them don't do it on Linux either.
answered Apr 10 at 23:06
JoshuaJoshua
79548
why can we make shellcode not working on Linux but not on Windows?
– Ooker
Apr 11 at 1:24
2
@Ooker: We can preventexecve()from working byptrace()or LSM or something more exotic. We can also move the syscall gate but that doesn't block everything.
– Joshua
Apr 11 at 1:57
1
@Joshua Shellcode from a browser exploit doesn't need to useexecve(). And I guess you could change the syscall numbers but that would require patching your libc and adjusting all manual assembly that invokes syscalls. Not to mention, it'd be totally useless if the shellcode abused a library call.
– forest
Apr 11 at 6:13
add a comment |
Oh goodie a surface area question.
The surface area of attacks against the OS via the browser varies wildly with the browser. With Internet Explorer, the surface area is vast. On the other hand, Firefox mostly uses its own decoders for everything, crushing the surface area down to only a few pieces. In any case, the TCP stack, DNS, and the font rendering engine remain attack targets. It is unwise to assume the attacker will not select a vulnerability that will actually work, and I see GDI+ remote code execution vulnerabilities every few months almost like clockwork.
Don't do it man. At least not on Windows. On Linux we can do exotic things that make shellcode not work that would at least make the attacker have to target you specifically. But if you haven't done them don't do it on Linux either.
answered Apr 10 at 23:06
JoshuaJoshua
79548
Oh goodie a surface area question.
The surface area of attacks against the OS via the browser varies wildly with the browser. With Internet Explorer, the surface area is vast. On the other hand, Firefox mostly uses its own decoders for everything, crushing the surface area down to only a few pieces. In any case, the TCP stack, DNS, and the font rendering engine remain attack targets. It is unwise to assume the attacker will not select a vulnerability that will actually work, and I see GDI+ remote code execution vulnerabilities every few months almost like clockwork.
Don't do it man. At least not on Windows. On Linux we can do exotic things that make shellcode not work that would at least make the attacker have to target you specifically. But if you haven't done them don't do it on Linux either.
answered Apr 10 at 23:06
JoshuaJoshua
79548
answered Apr 10 at 23:06
JoshuaJoshua
79548
answered Apr 10 at 23:06
JoshuaJoshua
79548
answered Apr 10 at 23:06
JoshuaJoshua
79548
79548
why can we make shellcode not working on Linux but not on Windows?
– Ooker
Apr 11 at 1:24
2
@Ooker: We can preventexecve()from working byptrace()or LSM or something more exotic. We can also move the syscall gate but that doesn't block everything.
– Joshua
Apr 11 at 1:57
1
@Joshua Shellcode from a browser exploit doesn't need to useexecve(). And I guess you could change the syscall numbers but that would require patching your libc and adjusting all manual assembly that invokes syscalls. Not to mention, it'd be totally useless if the shellcode abused a library call.
– forest
Apr 11 at 6:13
add a comment |
why can we make shellcode not working on Linux but not on Windows?
– Ooker
Apr 11 at 1:24
2
@Ooker: We can preventexecve()from working byptrace()or LSM or something more exotic. We can also move the syscall gate but that doesn't block everything.
– Joshua
Apr 11 at 1:57
1
@Joshua Shellcode from a browser exploit doesn't need to useexecve(). And I guess you could change the syscall numbers but that would require patching your libc and adjusting all manual assembly that invokes syscalls. Not to mention, it'd be totally useless if the shellcode abused a library call.
– forest
Apr 11 at 6:13
why can we make shellcode not working on Linux but not on Windows?
– Ooker
Apr 11 at 1:24
why can we make shellcode not working on Linux but not on Windows?
– Ooker
Apr 11 at 1:24
2
2
@Ooker: We can prevent
execve() from working by ptrace() or LSM or something more exotic. We can also move the syscall gate but that doesn't block everything.– Joshua
Apr 11 at 1:57
@Ooker: We can prevent
execve() from working by ptrace() or LSM or something more exotic. We can also move the syscall gate but that doesn't block everything.– Joshua
Apr 11 at 1:57
1
1
@Joshua Shellcode from a browser exploit doesn't need to use
execve(). And I guess you could change the syscall numbers but that would require patching your libc and adjusting all manual assembly that invokes syscalls. Not to mention, it'd be totally useless if the shellcode abused a library call.– forest
Apr 11 at 6:13
@Joshua Shellcode from a browser exploit doesn't need to use
execve(). And I guess you could change the syscall numbers but that would require patching your libc and adjusting all manual assembly that invokes syscalls. Not to mention, it'd be totally useless if the shellcode abused a library call.– forest
Apr 11 at 6:13
add a comment |
Answer:
Browsers are a big surface-area for security flaws and are a common source of bugs and weaknesses. While 'up-to-date' and 'secure' are not the same thing at all, having a robust browser will lower your exposure significantly, and in general newer (at the very least) means there will be fewer exploits 'in use' that will effect you. So yes this helps, and if it's the only way in to you system and if it behaves itself, then the OS only needs to behave in a sane way to prevent you from being exposed (sane in a way all likely OSs are).
However:
Browsers are not the only source of security issues. There is nothing it can do to protect you from anything other than itself and in a compromised system the browser could be too.
OS level protections while not as good as not-having-the-bug-in-the-first-place and limit the damage of a bug.
Hence:
- What you use the machine for and what services it has running etc will significantly effect the other risks and hence the answer to your question. If there are lots of other risky targets open and listening, how good your browser is might not be very relevant at all.
Advice:
The accepted wisdom (in these parts) and the advice people line up to give is:
"More security is more better, and more newer is more security.", which in this case translates to "Update your OS too".
Both are reasonable in my opinion and I wouldn't council against updating. But:
- It's not a silver bullet: no-one is ever 100% safe.
- There is potentially a trade-off against other things like convenience (which are often wrongly overlooked).
- There's always a slim possibility updating leads to you using Windows-10, and nobody wants that...
answered Apr 10 at 16:24
ANoneANone
2093
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
– Rory Alsop♦
Apr 15 at 10:51
add a comment |
Answer:
Browsers are a big surface-area for security flaws and are a common source of bugs and weaknesses. While 'up-to-date' and 'secure' are not the same thing at all, having a robust browser will lower your exposure significantly, and in general newer (at the very least) means there will be fewer exploits 'in use' that will effect you. So yes this helps, and if it's the only way in to you system and if it behaves itself, then the OS only needs to behave in a sane way to prevent you from being exposed (sane in a way all likely OSs are).
However:
Browsers are not the only source of security issues. There is nothing it can do to protect you from anything other than itself and in a compromised system the browser could be too.
OS level protections while not as good as not-having-the-bug-in-the-first-place and limit the damage of a bug.
Hence:
- What you use the machine for and what services it has running etc will significantly effect the other risks and hence the answer to your question. If there are lots of other risky targets open and listening, how good your browser is might not be very relevant at all.
Advice:
The accepted wisdom (in these parts) and the advice people line up to give is:
"More security is more better, and more newer is more security.", which in this case translates to "Update your OS too".
Both are reasonable in my opinion and I wouldn't council against updating. But:
- It's not a silver bullet: no-one is ever 100% safe.
- There is potentially a trade-off against other things like convenience (which are often wrongly overlooked).
- There's always a slim possibility updating leads to you using Windows-10, and nobody wants that...
answered Apr 10 at 16:24
ANoneANone
2093
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
– Rory Alsop♦
Apr 15 at 10:51
add a comment |
Answer:
Browsers are a big surface-area for security flaws and are a common source of bugs and weaknesses. While 'up-to-date' and 'secure' are not the same thing at all, having a robust browser will lower your exposure significantly, and in general newer (at the very least) means there will be fewer exploits 'in use' that will effect you. So yes this helps, and if it's the only way in to you system and if it behaves itself, then the OS only needs to behave in a sane way to prevent you from being exposed (sane in a way all likely OSs are).
However:
Browsers are not the only source of security issues. There is nothing it can do to protect you from anything other than itself and in a compromised system the browser could be too.
OS level protections while not as good as not-having-the-bug-in-the-first-place and limit the damage of a bug.
Hence:
- What you use the machine for and what services it has running etc will significantly effect the other risks and hence the answer to your question. If there are lots of other risky targets open and listening, how good your browser is might not be very relevant at all.
Advice:
The accepted wisdom (in these parts) and the advice people line up to give is:
"More security is more better, and more newer is more security.", which in this case translates to "Update your OS too".
Both are reasonable in my opinion and I wouldn't council against updating. But:
- It's not a silver bullet: no-one is ever 100% safe.
- There is potentially a trade-off against other things like convenience (which are often wrongly overlooked).
- There's always a slim possibility updating leads to you using Windows-10, and nobody wants that...
answered Apr 10 at 16:24
ANoneANone
2093
Answer:
Browsers are a big surface-area for security flaws and are a common source of bugs and weaknesses. While 'up-to-date' and 'secure' are not the same thing at all, having a robust browser will lower your exposure significantly, and in general newer (at the very least) means there will be fewer exploits 'in use' that will effect you. So yes this helps, and if it's the only way in to you system and if it behaves itself, then the OS only needs to behave in a sane way to prevent you from being exposed (sane in a way all likely OSs are).
However:
Browsers are not the only source of security issues. There is nothing it can do to protect you from anything other than itself and in a compromised system the browser could be too.
OS level protections while not as good as not-having-the-bug-in-the-first-place and limit the damage of a bug.
Hence:
- What you use the machine for and what services it has running etc will significantly effect the other risks and hence the answer to your question. If there are lots of other risky targets open and listening, how good your browser is might not be very relevant at all.
Advice:
The accepted wisdom (in these parts) and the advice people line up to give is:
"More security is more better, and more newer is more security.", which in this case translates to "Update your OS too".
Both are reasonable in my opinion and I wouldn't council against updating. But:
- It's not a silver bullet: no-one is ever 100% safe.
- There is potentially a trade-off against other things like convenience (which are often wrongly overlooked).
- There's always a slim possibility updating leads to you using Windows-10, and nobody wants that...
answered Apr 10 at 16:24
ANoneANone
2093
answered Apr 10 at 16:24
ANoneANone
2093
answered Apr 10 at 16:24
ANoneANone
2093
answered Apr 10 at 16:24
ANoneANone
2093
2093
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
– Rory Alsop♦
Apr 15 at 10:51
add a comment |
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
– Rory Alsop♦
Apr 15 at 10:51
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
– Rory Alsop♦
Apr 15 at 10:51
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
– Rory Alsop♦
Apr 15 at 10:51
add a comment |
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12
Why not just install Windows 10? It's a pain, but you can disable the privacy-violating "telemetry" features and change the desktop to look more like that of 7. Windows 10 has significantly superior security anyways.
– forest
Apr 10 at 3:00
26
Perhaps you should consider switching to a popular Linux distribution like Ubuntu then. It's secure, privacy-friendly, and works very well on a wide-variety of hardware (even old hardware).
– forest
Apr 10 at 4:31
10
unfortunately, I need Windows programs (AutoHotKey, ShareX, ManicTime). Libre Office can replace MS Office, but it's buggy for large files
– Ooker
Apr 10 at 4:52
7
Wine works for many programs, and there are good (sometimes superior) alternatives to many Windows-native programs that are incompatible with Wine. I suppose you'll have to decide whether or not it's important enough for you to buy a new computer (and continue to do so every few years).
– forest
Apr 10 at 5:07
11
in fact windows 10 should often be smoother on the same specs compared to Windows 7 because of several improvements like user-space font rendering (which means less context switches → lower Meltdown impact), compressed memory (like zram on Linux) which significantly enhances responsiveness on systems with low memory
– phuclv
Apr 10 at 16:12